M7 No. 245 - a couple of questions

I had a good look at 245 in York last year. Most of the motion was missing, I couldn't see any bits and pieces stored anywhere on the engine.

 

Meanwhile, the 'other' M7 has been running in preservation for about 20 years:-

Locoshed pages for Drummond M7 30053

Its in Herston Works at the moment for: re-tube, bogie overhaul, attention to valve gear and various other parts, bodywork and new protective coating. Due out around Easter 2013.

 

The motion's on a pallet in store. It has been off it for a long time.

 

It was certainly missing during her Southern tour in 88-90.

I have a hazy memory of 245 "piloting" one of the Woolworth Moguls (the N, I think) during an MHR gala, probably the LSW150 celebrations in '88.

 

Sorry for dragging this thread up, but I thought I might as well use this thread as it is the same loco. I'm trying to get the correct paint to do a repaint on one of my models (saves me £120 and however long until hornby release theirs) but there is a rather large number of greens and tan/brown/purples. looking at the phoenix paints site, I have a choice of drummond green and purple brown, Adams green and tan and umber, Beattie brown and Urie green. Which green and which purpley browny tanny colour!?

On Wikipedia it tells me that it is an non prototypical livery but not what it is. link that to the fact that all of these colours had different names to those mentioned, I'm proper confused!

thanks in advance for any help

 

What era do you want to paint it in? (I'm assuming LSWR…)

Drummond passenger livery was:

- "olympia" black (presumably matt) chimney and smokebox;
- gloss black tops to frames, running plate, tops of splashers, tanks and sandboxes, cab roof, foot step treads, guard irons, lamp brackets, axles, axle ends, tool boxes, coal rails, bunker interior, springs, spring hangers, brake gear.
- tan motion plate, interior of frames
- vermillion buffer beams
- pine effect scumble cab interior
- pea green everything else (i.e. all the major plate work - boiler cladding, cab and splasher sides, tool box sides, tanks, bunker valences, wheel bosses, spokes, rims, footsteps, and the frame exteriors.

Drummond referred to the colour as "royal green" or "tartan green" but in fact it was almost identical in composition to Adams pea green.

Urie retained the same livery (with detail variations in lining and the use of monograms and lettering) until around December 1914, when the royal (pea) green was replaced with "sage" green, which was darker than the Drummond royal green, more akin to olive green. After October 1917, the lining was simplified as an economy measure. Apparently, the sage green weathered to a rather yellowish shade.

All info from DL Bradley, Locos of the LSWR vol 3.

Can't help with the precision paint colours I'm afraid, but I've used the official paint colour names above, so hopefully they also use the same names. If in doubt, I'd suggest Adams pea green, if they don't have Drummond royal green.

If you are modelling a specific loco, it is worth getting a photo as there was some variation in whether they were lettered "SWR", "LSWR", "S.W.R." "LSW" etc on the tank sides, and how the company coat of arms was used.

Tom

 

I'm modelling the M7 as it currently appears in the NRM, 245 plenty of pictures around, just nothing saying which named colours, that is what is difficult, it appears to be a non-prototypical livery according to wikipedia. Sounds like I want the Urie green from 1914-17 then and the Drummond tan (described on phoenix as purple/brown)?

Thanks for the information on LSWR livery in general as well, I don't suppose anyone makes the correct lining, I have the means to make my own, but having the thin white on the outside will be a bit of a headache I'd rather avoid if necessary.

 

"Purple brown" in LSWR parlance is a chocolate brown used as the main livery in the WG Beattie era - possibly not dissimilar this colour:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamessquared/8221411133/

I think the tan colour would be different, and rather paler. Not that you would have much use for it with a solid die cast chassis, as the tan is used for the insides of the frames.

Edit: Just thinking about the brown bands around the panels. They are described as "dark brown", lined with a triple white-black-white stripe. Probably the Beattie purple-brown isn't too far out. Especially given the vagaries of memory, and how colour scales with size, meaning that the original appearance is difficult to know.

Tom

 

So not the Drummond tan then. The colour I'm talking about Is the purply colour outside the white black white lining, sorry if that wasn't clear. Maybe it's an as yet undiscovered urie colour to go with his green...

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I guess you could ask Precision paints for advice. Or try the HMRS or the South Western Circle?

Tom

 

Ok, I'll drop them an email if no one can come up with anything by tomorrow, thanks for the general info, wish they didn't change their minds so much though!

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Well, you could always just paint it black! <sigh> But that would be boring...

Incidentally, it would be interesting to compare with what you end up paying for paint for a 4mm model, but in March 1909, the cost of painting an 0-4-4T was given as labour £12 8/2; materials £5 11/5; total £17 19/7. At that period, passenger engines averaged 26 months between repaints and goods engines 34 months. It was no doubt that cost, and price inflation during the war, that led to Urie simplifying the paint scheme, in particular the lining.

Tom

 

Definitely not black, I read a letter in a magazine a while ago questioning everyone's obsession with BR livery, I prefer the earliest livery possible on a loco! It's currently in a rather faded southern, erm, green of some description with sunshine lettering. The paint will be about £6 ~£3 per tinlet plus the extortionate postage fees on paint now making it about £12, which is the same as the labour cost of painting the full size one - assuming that no inflation has taken place over the past 100 years and our currency had stayed the same... the there is the lining, if HMRS do a sheet that will be about £6 probably, if I make my own it will be more like £2, if I can work out how to do it!

 

Edit: check year of the post your replying to before hitting send!.

 

Hehe, I did ponder on whether to start a new one or not for my query

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I don't mean you, I mean I replied to a post from January 2013 because it didn't register it was last year for a bit

 

Trains, I'd guess.

 

Getting back to the M7, this is really for Antony, you said the motion was in store, is the motion all there, because i heard once that some of it went onto the T9, Of cource, thats assuming that there is parts that are interchangeable,
So when 245 was withdrawn was she withdrawn just because of lack of work because the more modern standard tanks took over the ECS work , or because of any mechanical failure? if she was withdrawn solely because of lack of work then in theory she could be a easy restoration ,if Swanage ,or the BWR were so inclined to ask , i would think a working M7, would fit very well into the Bodmin and wenfords motive power fleet.

 

Not sure why Swanage would want an M7 Martin when they already have one ?.

 

I hadn't previously been aware that part of the NRM's remit is to provide motive power for the Bodmin Railway!