Main Line Steam - Possible ramifications of the WCRC suspension

Whether a tour operator has a claim for breach of contract depends first and foremost on whether there is a contract which has been breached. While I am not aware what the contractual arrangements are, one gets the impression that they are flexible up to a point fairly near the date of the trip in view of the cancellations which take place. There may perhaps be a two stage process by which a loco / coach set is reserved for a smallish payment, but the tour company only goes on significant financial risk nearer the date.

 

At what point do they metaphorically "cash the cheque"? Surely it would be possible to take the booking online with the card number as a forward commitment by the customer to pay, but not debit the card until there is certainty the tour is going ahead? (I recently bought something online with a very long and somewhat unknown lead time and that is exactly what the vendor did, only debiting my card when they were ready to dispatch the goods).

Tom

 

Well the diesel question we have debated to death(and maybe beyond!) on this forum and its covered by the tour operators T&C's. But with a redating/postponement then I cannot believe that any company would refuse a full refund.

 

Oh yes, there is. A tour promoter can, on receipt of information that his TOC is in distress and cannot deliver, immediately pull its entire programme for the month, and refund customer money swiftly, with good grace, and without demure. Just one of the big hitters did that - VT, and it goes substantially to their credit. A national sh*tstorm of this magnitude truly (if ruthlessly) sorts the men from the boys.

 

Are you telling me that a company is right in accepting bookings when they know a tour is not running? So, if I ring RTC today and book, say, the Heart of Wales on 25/4/15 you are saying that this booking should be accepted and my money paid. At the moment this tour is on UK steam as not being cancelled but may be. I know it is a difficult balancing act but only if they accept my money should they do so on the clear understanding that should the tour not run, or run with a diesel throughout, that I get my money, all of my money back. Now that is a reasonable compromose. It is not mine, or anyone else's job to prop up any business faced with this uncertainty. I couldn't get away with it in the telecoms industry where I work.

 

That would definitely be best practice Tom if I were advising the business professionally. Taking a small deposit might be acceptable too which is probably what the tour company does with the TOC, full payment being made under normal business terms after the train has run.
I'd also recommend that while this period of elevated uncertainty exists the tour companies ought to be making it clear at the point of booking so that customers have all the facts to consider before placing their 'bet'.

 

Here here!

 

Yes,but thats just too simplistic. By all accounts,there was a realistic chance(until Tuesday evening) of this Sundays SD trip to Kingswear running with DBS. I don't see how any tour operator could stay in business unless each tour is treated on a case-by-case basis. The owner of WCRC has stated that he expects to be back in business in time to operate RTC's GBVII tour in 11 days time. Make of that what you will,but mass cancellation and refunds weeks in advance cannot be the answer.

 

When I have been booked on trips with SD and RTC which have been postponed and I cannot make the revised date, a refund or transfer to another trip has always available.

 

Absolutely it's possible. Like I said before, accepting a booking is one thing, taking someone's money is another, and the latter should only happen when there's some certainty that the goods being paid for can be delivered !

 

As VT use their own vacuum braked locos and stock, they probably had no choice. Other promoters such as SD and RTC potentially had the option of using DBS, although, in practice that does not appear to have been possible.

 

Simplistic? Care and custody of customer's funds is a simple matter of trust, reinforced by law; it is the customers money until a train has been delivered. At the moment, and for the last fortnight, there has been NO robust supplier of steam hauled trains for RTC or SD or VT. VT alone made the right call based on a professional assessment of the evidence as of 3 April. Everyone else has hoped for the best, which isn't how it turned out. If your words truly reflect what you think are good business ethics, please come with me...I have a bridge on the Thames to sell you.

 

I would also suggest that SD & RTC have a somewhat better idea of the state of play with WCRC's discussions with NR than we do on here!

 

I think SD and RTC can continue to take bookings for tours which they either have postponed (ideally with the proposed new date clearly displayed) or which they & WCRC are actively trying to make alternative arrangements for. However, they need to make certain things very clear at the time of booking -

1. There's a significant risk that the tour won't run as planned because of WCRC's suspension, ideally with a link to the various public statements from NR and WCRC
2. What the alternatives will be - e.g. postponed for 3 months, transfer to another tour, refund or whatever;
3. Whether or not any money will be debited from the card immediately and if not, when it will be.

Personally, I think it's OK to take a deposit (maybe 20%) at the time of booking, and the balance when tickets are dispatched.

In practice, the current situation is much the same as times of high fire-risk, industrial action, etc. With the notable exception of VT (who in this case, didn't really have any choice) the tour companies are not good at communicating this sort of uncertainty to prospective customers, perhaps because they fear people wouldn't book, or at least not so far in advance.

 

Surely when a punter makes a booking and payment is made, a contract to supply is made. Imagine making a payment for goods or services that are not available, then that must be fraud. As WCRC is suspended then all tours must be suspended until further notice. Its a hit on the tour ops but unavoidabe for them.

 

Indeed, it might be a fatal hit. As I posted some time ago, the tour rail tour industry can't survive too long without any income being generated.
It's a bad situation, lets all just hope (that's all we can do) that WC can satisfy the authorities and we can get back to something like normality very quickly.

 

So are you saying that SD were wrong to attempt to run the Kingswear trip with DBS? Surely if there was a realistic chance of it running(which unless you do not believe what SD said,was the case) then they were right to pursue it? Surely any other action is just a quick way to going bust.
As others have said,VT is a vac brake only operation so naturally they had no option but to pull their trips.

 

With regard to taking payment when booking a tour I believe financial legislation changed early last year so that you had to pay in full at the time of making a booking as companies are no longer allowed to keep your details on file and make a charge when a tour was confirmed to be running. As far as I can remember both UK Railtours and Pathfinder used to take payment only a week or two before a tour ran though (please correct me if I'm wrong) RTC took full payment at the time of booking.

 

I might be misunderstanding what you are saying GFG, but absent any particular terms establishing a trust (e.g. including the supplier agreeing to hold the payment in a separate account), once the money is paid by the customer, it seems to me that he or she becomes an unsecured creditor of the supplier until the service is delivered or the money returned, and he/she does not enjoy any greater rights than any other creditor.