Manx Northern Railway Cleminson Coaches

Robert,

As you choose not to answer my questions, I will explain why I asked them.

If someone comes to me asking for money, advice or help, I like to know who I am dealing with, particularly on a forum where you can't see or hear the other person and imposters do exist.

If I was going to make a larger contribution of money or time, I would like to know how my views and suggestions might be considered by the Society.

This forum is useful for getting to know people, but it is also important to know who they represent and how these organisations are run. If your Society had, say, 300 members and 30 or so of these members are actively involved in restoring the historic assets which you own, then I would see that the group was similar to other volunteer organisations in the heritage movement. This would provide me with some confidence that my money and time would be put to good use, and that the organisation would listen to other people's opinions.

As you deliberately choose not to answer my simple questions, this immediately rings lots of alarm bells. Also, I don't know of any other organisation which would refers to its "enemies" in an annual report.

If you are wanting to encourage people to help in any way, I would suggest that you answer the questions they ask and start to build a relationship with them. Otherwise, they may look for other projects which are making similar - but more friendly - requests on their wallet, time and knowledge.

Richard

 

OK, I could tell you our membership figures, but it would be valueless. Long ago there were two societies. One had been in existence for less than a year and had 37 members. One had been around for 8 years and had around 500 members. You ask for membership figures so who do you support? Lets go further, one had a surplus of £9 and one had a surplus of £233, so which one do you support? A few months later one had preserved a coach and a crane so with hindsight which should you have supported.

The Isle of Man Railway Society was the small one that had been founded a few months before. It had 37 members so why would you support the small one. Well it turned in a surplus in its first year for preservation of £233, as against the magnificent £9 of the larger well established society? The answer looks a bit different now! Should you have supported the society that preserved the two vehicles or the ones who just yapped.

We are a small society, I have never denied that. We became aware of some odd going on, and that rang alarm bells. As I have already said, a couple of people with a bunch of nominees could have gained control of the Society for under £1000, and with consultancy fees and so on could have siphoned off cash and disposable assets to the tune of £50,000 that our long standing members had created into their own pockets.

Can you guarantee to me that there is no one out there who would do that? Of course you can't! I am not very bright at the internet, but I do know about phishing emails. There are a lot of nasty people out there, and heritage railways have been targeted by crooks, have they not? We are, or were, a soft target. The information you ask for would make it a lot easier for raiders. I believe we have put defences in place that will protect us from such people. How does providing information of potential use to raiders serve the coach? It is as simple as that.

From the example I gave, 37 members v 500, if you had been given that data back in the 1970s, would you have said I will put my money into the small recently formed one? I doubt it! A bare unsupported fact can be misleading. Its only value is to a raider who has no legitimate interest in the society. As a matter of interest would you like to give me all your passwords? I don't want them, but I doubt you would be that dumb.

If you look back, you will find that I was asking for helpful leads, rather than saying give us money. and several people have given us very useful contacts. When we have a proper restoration plan with the costs worked out, we WILL start work. Then is the time to ask for money. We have had some valuable advice and the people who have given us that have been an immense help. That is what I seek.

As to the word enemies - we had preserved the coach and the DCCL proposed to dump it on the lineside to trash. We had preserved 23 and 26 and they were to be dumped on the lineside. We had provided a new boiler for No 8, and fantastic though it may seem, that was to be dumped. Does a friend do that to you or is it more characteristic of an enemy? During the war, my mother worked with a lot of Aussie nurses. You knew exactly where you stood with them as they called a spade a B.... spade. A lot of English nurses were horrified at these creatures. In parliament you cannot call a man a liar, but it does not make him any less of a liar. I said it as it was. It was a vicious and unfriendly threat to use against people who had raised tens of thousands of pounds for the benefit of the railway. It may not be politically correct but as with the Aussie sisters you knew what the situation was.

 

Another 700 words later, and still no answer to the three questions I asked: (1) *Current* membership (2) Increasing or decreasing (3) Number of active members.

You seem to answer lots of questions which have not been asked, and give more examples of how you don't like other people or their decisions, or why you think your society was always doing the right thing.

I will back out of this discussion now, as I have other things to do with my time/money.

Richard

 

So given a golden opportunity to try to recruit me (or others) as members and explain the technical and historical value of the cCeminson coach, and why it is deserving of my cash, we get another history lesson and discussion of the job prospects of civil servants isince 1978...

As for not fundraising now: It seems a very odd position for a preservation body to take. Yes, it is sensible to get a full project plan before commencing on restoration, though sometimes no amount of inspection will uncover the "hidden nasties" until you actually start dismantling. But in ballpark terms, the cost of restoring Victorian carriages is fairly widely known: ask the IoWSR or the Bluebell or maybe the Tallyln or Festiniog. The last victorian 4 wheeler at the Bluebell cost £50k; given that this is a bigger carriage than a 3ft guage one, you are probably looking at between the £25k you say you have and £50k to restore yours, depending how much interior you still have, and how you split the work between paid and volunteer workforce. So it doesn't seem dishonest to me to make an appeal for funds now, knowing that - if you are successful in fundraising - any surplus can be ploughed into your next project. Whereas, being charitable, it seems like your current tactic just will end up costing you more on inflation grounds, because by time you have your report, and then start fundraising, and then start restoration, several more years will have gone by and the cost of everything will have gone up.

Still, you have already lost me as a potential supporter. I'll put my metaphorical tenner (actually rather more) into the Maunsell Restaurant car at the Bluebell, knowing that by doing so, there is a fighting chance that I will actually be able to ride in it and feel that those few square feet of moquette was paid for by my contribution.

Tom

 

Many thanks for that Tom. I am confident that the cost will be £25-50,000, and the volunteer element could play a big role in keeping costs down. It may be old-fashioned, but if I ask you or anyone else for money, I want to know that I am not misleading you. There has been plenty of that in the preservation world, but it is not usually down to dishonesty but to an innocent mistake. If it should be £25,000 then we are there with a margin to spare, but has anyone applied automatic brakes to a Cleminson coach? That could add a lot!

I believe our members trust us, so I am happy to ask them for money. We launched a Support the Cleminson appeal to members, saying they would receive an original unissued MNR Share-cert of 1879, as that is worth what we were asking. If I am WRONG they still have had full value for money.

You have no reason to trust us. I could put together a glossy brochure with flow charts etc and it would probably look convincing. If I was wrong, and you gave us money, I would feel I had personally let YOU down. There can be nasties, and we had some weird copper in the 1936 Fenella boiler that the SVR had never encountered before! If I could get a lottery application in before the Jan 7 deadline that would be great, but realistically I think it will be too tight.

We have a board meeting in a few days which will be attended by our Consultant Mechanical Engineer. I started a report with photos this morning at 8.30, as the more initial knowledge I can provide the better will be the advice he gives us. Half an hour later the balloon went up with a fresh string of allegations, so the report is barely started. I am replying to you because I respect the measured comments you made. After that, I am going to get on with the report.

You have shown understanding and if we have lost you, I am truly sorry, but I would rather do that than perhaps mislead you. Despite the endless demands, I will NOT give information that could be of value to a raider. and £50,000 plus for £1,000 is a good "investment" even though I believe we have put in place the necessary safeguards to protect our members. I will not give a development plan or seek donations until I can say hand-on-heart to myself that I have done everything I can think of to get it right. You and everyone out there have the right to expect that of me.

If people think it is inflexible or secretive or there is a hidden agenda then I am genuinely sorry. I am confident we can and will deliver a restored coach, but I will not ask you or anyone I do not know for donations until I can tick all the boxes, and if I am pilloried for it, so be it.

Robert H

 

And as I pointed out this is a complete falacy. It is easy to restructure to prevent it happening not withstanding your constituition prevents payments of dividends or distributions and "your" assets needed the permision of IoM Govt to leave the Island, let alone that two of the engines were in sealed accomodation due to asbestos.

I do not hate you or your organisation as you suggest. I have never met you. I may be exasperated at your inability to answer a straight simple question and your continued slagging off of all and sundry who basically do not accept without question whatever you state.

For all that I think you have, possible unwittingly, answered all my questions in your reason postings. Prior to this topic I did not know much about the IoMTRPS and I was interested in learning about it. I think you have made it abundantly clear that despite the fancy name it is little more than your private company to hold a small collection all be it you may have got a few mates involved. Nothing wrong with that there are plenty of small private collections out there doing good work. I hope in due course you show the IoMTRPS to be one of them and achieve your aims as ultimately the preservation of railways and related items is what we all support and are interested in.

 

On the basis that the accounts show membership income of just over £300 and RH stated associated membership is £9.95 answer to question 1 must be less than 35. How much less may depend on what the full membership fee is. On the basis that it seems so difficult to join and the accounts show a decline in membership fees I would presume the answer to question 2 is declining.

As for active members. The way Mr Hendry posts I would suggest the answer might be 1. Certainly if I was a director or active member of a society that had such a vociferous chairman who was apparently alienting potential supporters and donators I would not quietly sit back and let them continue it that vein, but that apparently is the situation.

 

Allan Thompson and Robert Hendry seem to be two sides of the same coin...

 

Perhaps they've had plenty of practise, sparring by snail mail or semaphore, before setting out their stalls on here?

 

Practise makes perfect!

 

Smoke signals surely?

Paul H.

 

On behalf of another Trust involved with Narrow Gauge Railways, I wrote a number of letters to the Hendrys - both father and son. They couldn't be bothered to reply.

I take all these allegations that they were the injured party with a very large pinch of salt.

 

I suspect that Mr Hendry's organisation is very exclusive and had a membership of just one

 

So he claims he can't work out how to get get an email address, but he can write hundreds of lines of self justification on here.

He's taking the p"""

 

Wow! Eight minutes and then six minutes between insults. Do you want to try to get them down to four minute intervals!

I learned to type when I was at school, so that's no problem, but I have a friend (yes really I do!) and when I announce my latest internet problem, he sighs and sorts it out. A gentleman has kindly opened a gmail account for me, and hopefully I will be able to post details when I am happy that I can work it.

As to your suspicion that there is just one member - it would be a good idea if you did your homework. One contributor who is more than a little hostile gave the ages of the board members and how many there were. Now you could have made a much better insult by saying that number. It would have shown you take some care in fashioning your insults. It would still have been wrong, but neater.

Now what I do wonder is why on earth you bothered to come on this forum at all. It is supposed to be about Cleminson coaches, and how has this contributed? I have suggested that the people who so clearly detest me might like to save the coach in Douglas that is in need of attention or it will rot away. DO you want to do something useful, or will insult No 4 be on the way.

My father died in 1991, I have no idea what your letter(s) were about but I am truly amazed if someone bears a grudge for twenty-plus years towards someone who is dead over a letter. As it happened my father wrote to a leading author in 1989. I know that as I typed the letter. He was a GP in civilian life and a Consultant Anaesthetist and a Consultant physician in the army, but his typing was deplorable, so I did most of his typing for him. I am not taking the p***. He did not get a reply. Am I supposed to harbour a grudge to someone who did not reply to my father twenty three years ago, and is unable to defend himself?

Is insulting someone who had been dead for over twenty-three years over an alleged letter your idea of contributing to railway preservation. I shall look forward to the next batch of insults.

Robert Hendry

 

I actually agree that criticising Mr. Hendry's long dead father is rather a low blow but I notice Mr. Hendry himself remembers writing to "a leading author" without getting a reply as far back as 1989. These long memories are a curse! Both parties are equally culpable.

Can I make a plea to these Manx obsessives? Firstly to the "anti-Hendries". Let him and his associates, how many there may be, take advantage of their fresh start to get on with their restoration task in peace free from sniping. Secondly, to Mr. Hendry. Please please put a sock in these long postings which seem unable to answer simple questions and are in danger of turning him into a figure of fun, which I am sure he is not.

Oh and a last plea to the moderators. If, despite these pleas the parties continue to take pot shots at one another, please lock the thread!

Paul H.

 

I would point out that unlike michaelh, I did NOT name the author concerned, and there is no way I would do so. He is sadly dead, so he could defend himself. Maybe his publishers did not pass the letter on. Maybe it was never delivered. Maybe he was ill. Maybe there was nothing he could usefully say. There are a host of explanations. Am I so important that I have a right to expect a reply from a busy and successful author, as if I am some Time Lord? Why should I harbour a grudge against the gentleman.

I have several of his books on my shelves and the only reason I recalled the incident was that in answering some of the fantastic queries over the past few days I have had to delve back into papers going back 40+ years. It brought back many memories and some of the manuscript drafts that I had to type out. My father's handwriting lived up to the stories about doctor's writing! On one occasion when I said facetiously that I thought it might be written in Latin, the next letter he gave me was in Latin. The joke was on me!

When michaelh made this cheap jibe, I used the story as an example of how absurd it is to harbour a grudge of this sort. I for one do not. I specifically did NOT name the author. It is absurd. One of my ancestors died in battle in 1057AD which is 955 years ago. Having a relation killed is a bit more serious than not getting a reply to a letter, but I have yet to work myself up to hate his killer.

In suggesting the thread be blocked, I wonder if Paul is not, albeit with the best of motives, falling into a trap. If a member vomits insults on to a thread closing it must seem attractive to the moderators, but that harms free speech.

I have not agreed with what some people have said, and I think some of you have been needlessly hurtful, but I defend your right to say it. Where I have declined to answer some points I have tried to explain the reasons. I hoped for useful contacts from people active in coach preservation and that hope had been fulfilled largely through the PM field.

If Paul feels I was displaying a grudge, I fear I did not express myself as well as I might have wished. I admire the author concerned and feel he contributed much to railway literature. We, as enthusiasts would be much the poorer without him. On the worst possible interpretation, he was a busy man and perhaps had nothing useful to suggest to us. Should I hate for that. I have three small daughters and the two older girls adore trains! They love train books and when they are old enough to treat some of the books this author wrote I hope they may find them as wonderful a read as I did.

Robert H

 

Again six paragraphs to say "point taken". Except he does not quite say "point taken"! Do please insert aforesaid sock.
P.H.