If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

MHR Restorations and Overhauls

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by LN850, May 21, 2010.

  1. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,355
    Likes Received:
    5
    Occupation:
    Pensioner!
    Location:
    North-west London
    I suspect that the ER was just overloading the engines and wanted to get a fix. Personally I would advocate a bit of stepping back from some of the assertions that have been made about this matter. Until it became possible to use computer simulations the draughting of heat engines was very much an empiricle business. One of the reasons Swindon used the Dean Goods as a model was that, for a Cl2 engine, it steamed perfectly. It seemed a good idea therefore that if you needed to improve a Cl4 engine, use two Dean Goods! Seems a bit daft to me, but it did work for the Cl4 4-6-0. Less so for other engines.

    One of the problems I have with assessing steam loco design is that the skills required to do it are, to a great extent, lost. There are very few people left who have those skills and it seems ever so presumptuous to go around questioning the skills of men like Riddles, Bond and Cox.

    'Steve' spoke of the steaming of the Brighton Tank. I don't think anybody has ever questioned to ability of the engine to produce steam and to run at up to 80mph. It could do this, no problem, and there are any number of logs to prove it. Running a frequent stopping service is a little different, because the superheater might not be given enough time in between stops to get up to full temperature, with consequent affects on steaming and fuel economy.

    'class8mikado' spoke of a Cl5 4-6-4T. As the LMS found with the tank version of the Hughes 4-6-0 in the twenties these come out rather heavy, rather like a Black 5 carrying its tender in side tanks and a bunker. Nice in theory but really not a goer in practice.

    During the 1920s the theory and practice of feed water pumps came up a number of times at the ILocoE meetings. There was a consensus that in Britain, with its limited loading gauge and its practice of having many light trains stopping every 60-100 miles or so (as opposed to a few, very heavy trains -like say the situation in France or the USA), that it was difficult to achieve the promised savings in fuel promised by feed water pre-heating and the additional maintenance and capital charges involved. It was also accepted that live and exhaust injectors did provide a measure of feed water heating and this was probably as much as could be offered in the British context.

    I wonder if 'std tank' could provide me with a reference re the ER request for the Brighton Tank double chimney. I would like very much to pursue the matter.

    Regards
     
  2. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    One of the problems I have with assessing steam loco design is that the skills required to do it are, to a great extent, lost. There are very few people left who have those skills and it seems ever so presumptuous to go around questioning the skills of men like Riddles, Bond and Cox.


    'class8mikado' spoke of a Cl5 4-6-4T. As the LMS found with the tank version of the Hughes 4-6-0 in the twenties these come out rather heavy, rather like a Black 5 carrying its tender in side tanks and a bunker. Nice in theory but really not a goer in practice.

    During the 1920s the theory and practice of feed water pumps came up a number of times at the ILocoE meetings. There was a consensus that in Britain, with its limited loading gauge and its practice of having many light trains stopping every 60-100 miles or so (as opposed to a few, very heavy trains -like say the situation in France or the USA), that it was difficult to achieve the promised savings in fuel promised by feed water pre-heating and the additional maintenance and capital charges involved. It was also accepted that live and exhaust injectors did provide a measure of feed water heating and this was probably as much as could be offered in the British context.


    "TheEngineers" view

    In response to para 1 above. I do not think any of us were questioning the designers credibility, more trying to recover the knowledge that is lost, in the way of understanding how they arived at their working designs.We are in most cases 100 years on, and materials and production costs and ability to make long lasting complex items improved, the world of then, has changed out of all recognition, as readers we are revisiting some of the ideas.

    One hopes some of the many readers( and there are many who have visited this thread) will have gained more understanding of some aspects of loco design and operation. I am learning all the time.I can understand the criticism about people being not able to understand the complex trade off's in loco design we are discussing its not an easy subject to understand if you have not studdied at technical college or university.

    Sadly very few people are being taught Steam dynamic's , the theory known as "Applied Heat & Thermodynamics". I was possibly one of the last in 1976,of the "Old School" teachings before subjects got merged and reduced in sylabus , if there are others out there great who came later please say I would be interested to know I have not met many who spark my wick.

    Engineering teaching seems to have died in about 1985 with the end the EITB with most company real apprentice training workshops closing, that taught all the aspects of metalworking, fabrication, welding, etc and even less who promoted theory learning and design of such things as locomotives.

    This has been an excelent forum (sorry its got off topic), for those who want to know aspects about BR standard designs its good,much of which I have read and learnt something, thanks all of you for adding your bit.

    Paragraph 3 To heat feed water after the feed pump, but before boiler entry . The pump could just be a separate Worthington Duplex quite small only requires afeed water tube coiled around the outside of the smoke box with an outer insulated wrapper.

    Yes it could be far more complex but why, this would heat at least most of the water to near boiling as we are now feeding slowly all of the time not in bursts, most loco's these days have a very light duty cycle. Say 2 gallons a minute to 100c, if more goes through it just will not get so hot there is a lot of waste heat on the smokebox and its a fair area to absorb from.
     
  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If its any help it was still part of the Marine Engineer Cadet syllabus until at least 1982 (to my knowledge) - it may still be now?
     
  4. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    Is this RN artificer / technician level ? or MN Engineer grades as was Board of Trade qualification. I think it is probably still taught as a subject but in how much depth? and how much hands on relevance. We were doing lab tests with live generated steam in 76 as well as parsons tests and mean brake efficiency indicator plotters, Bomb calorimiters and that sort of test equipment . We were designing shell and tube boilers ( marine and Loco) and working through the calculations for heating surface and energy source etc anyone out ther now in their 30's or 40's do this as part of their education?.
     
  5. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    MN Engineer. Probably not taught to the same depth now.
     
  6. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    THE CORE SUBJECT MHR MAJOR RESTORATIONS RETURN TO SUBJECT-- THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE--

    The thread has gone off topic to some extent so lets return now with this thought and question which will affect Future Restorations and Major progress.

    Many of todays preserved railways I guess including the Mid Hants have taken on training of new staff as a necessary issue and most have taken on apprentices in the loco section. Many of these lads have now progressed to journeyman and skilled man have any gone to Technical college or University have you sponsored them to do this have you stretched them to their limit or have they had an easy ride.

    Without nameing anyone and many of you readers are annonymous. "The Question is" has this borne the fruit required to take preservation forward in the next 25 years.

    INSERTION

    IN WRITING THIS INSERTION I WAS NOT AWARE OF THE APPRENTICE RECRUITMENT PROGRAM AT MHR CURRENTLY BEING PROMOTED. THIS WAS SELF INSPIRED ISSUE AS A VIEW NOT A CRITICISM . WELL DONE THOSE DRIVING THE PLAN EXCEPT .

    AFTER READING THE ADVERT AND FROM DOING THE JOB FOR 35 YEARS AND BEING TIME SERVED A 2 YEAR APPRENTICESHIP IS NO GOOD YOU JUST AS WELLCALL IT "YTS" YOUR DOING THOSE LADS AND YOURSELVES NO FAVOURS.

    YOU WILL NOT MEET THE TARGET REQUIRED AND FALL SHORT ON QUALITY AND KNOWLEDGE,THAT'S DANGEROUS AND A FLAW IN THE PLAN . 4 YEARS MINIMUM WITH STRUCTURE AND TARGETS NOT NVQ LEVEL TRAINING. SORRY BUT THESE LADS WILL NOT BE RECOGNISED AS TIME SERVED BY ENGINEERS RECRUITING THEM IN THE FUTURE.NVQ IN THE EYES OF US HAS ANOTHER MEANING STARTING WITH "NOT VERY"

    IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT AN "APPRENTICESHIP" ITS 4 YEARS WITH INDENTURES OR NOTHING !! THIS IS NOT A CHEAP GET OUT, YOUR MAKING A MOCKERY OF THOSE OF US WHO ARE THE" ENGINEERS" NOW AND HAVE SERVED THEIR TIME . WE CAN SEE THE PROBLEM WE HAVE BEEN THERE .

    PERHAPS NOT THE UNDERSTANDING AND PERSPECTIVE THAT THE MODERN GENERATION AND ETHOS MANAGEMENT ARE LOOKING FROM. I SEE A PROBLEM " IF IT WORKS DON'T TRY AND FIX IT" . SO YOUR PROMOTING A 2010 YTS SCHEME THEN

    Are these young men ( in most cases) trained and capable to take on the understanding and responsibility that goes with the care and use of 100 ton steam loco's, to take on board all the legislation and carry it, to sensibly progress to Loco Shop Foreman and Railway Management and build up the resources necessary to continue the fight to keep steam in action or do we have a problem comming our way with lack of competent staff.

    Many of you readers have been responsible for the selection and education of this new breed of today's engineers, have you done a good job is everything going to be in order when the old boy's take off their caps for the last time.

    " Answers please on a postcard" in all fairness I would be interested to know what the overall view is, a representative from all the big ones would be good . It may be the smaller railways will score better, answers from all railway groups would be fabulous, how many have been through your system in the last 10 years and how you would score the result overall out of 10. You can make comments like "well pleased "with the result "difficult to find suitable lads" "excellent practically""rising through the ranks well" "never do it again" "too much risk"
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Can I respectfully suggest that you are art least a factor of ten out in this. Certainly, the NYMR locos go through something like 1200 gallons in an hours run. And don't forget that the demand isn't constant. A lot of those 1200 gallons will be used in a fifteen minute burst.
     
  8. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    We are revisiting ideas and why they never caught on, it is evident in todays cost analysis world that more has to be made from what we do this is one aspect to consider.Thanks for your observation Steve accepted the figures I quoted are way out,against your usage, but it is the principal that I am promoting.

    So we are talking about 20-40 gal a minute this is a fair amount of water large size engine? working fairly hardwith a load. Do other railways use equivalent volumes per minute 1200 gallons/hr from cold is a substantial amount of Kw's it would not be feasable to heat this water with waste heat just from the smoke box, but a proportion of it possibly be from that area.

    Other heat could possibly be tapped from the cylnder exhaust possibly. I was thinking of a lot of smaller railways who have tight budgets with fairly small engines where there is more sitting about than heavy activity.The pre heating arangements for Std 5 or an A4 is far larger and more complex than say on a 4F or a 32xx collet or smaller.
     
  9. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    5
    I am more confident for some railways I see than others...
     
  10. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,355
    Likes Received:
    5
    Occupation:
    Pensioner!
    Location:
    North-west London
    I really don't understand this ...

    Sorry
     
  11. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    For "Orions" benifit and many others as well. I have added the section in capitals it is also necessary to train people accademically on theory of steam and engineering design not just how to bolt bits together or turn a pin and operate the finished article.
     
  12. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,355
    Likes Received:
    5
    Occupation:
    Pensioner!
    Location:
    North-west London
    Repeating the section in 'capitals' is not going to improve my understanding of your written English. The problem is your written English and just as you advocate longer apprenticeships I might just as easily advocate attendance at a local evening class.

    As you feel you know so much about the steam engine why don't you join the WSR in their loco dept? You never know you might learn something.
     
  13. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    4,799
    Likes Received:
    349
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tilehurst, Reading, Berks.
    Yet another thread descending into a boring load of waffle. Nat-Pres at its best.
     
  14. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We are perhaps going off topic rather, but it is becoming evident that perhaps the only way to get an HLF grant at the present time is to include apprentice training as part of the application. In theory this is fine, but I have a concern that it will just be used as a means to an end and the "training" provided may prove to be of variable quality. As alluded to by the Engineer, two year "apprenticeships" may not be that worthwhile. This is an area where the HRA could perhaps take a lead and draw up a core curriculum for different categories of heritage railway student, e.g. steam locomotive, diesel locomotive, C & W, PWay to try to make courses comparable. What we don't want to see is the movement getting a bad name for offering poor quality apprenticeships as a means to unlock other funds, particularly when some of our railways have been quietly running very successful apprentice training schemes for many years.

    Before the usual horde of Mid Hants folk have a go at me, I'm not really picking on them in particular, it's just that they are the first to go down this particular avenue, which I'm sure others will follow, but I'm not convinced that 2year posts will be worthwhile for either party.
     
  15. spindizzy

    spindizzy Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    899
    Likes Received:
    44
    2 year apprenticeship, doesn't sound long to me, I'm a time served Toolmaker, many of the older Toolmakers didn't like the fact I only had a 4 year term. Two years is just not long enough. Don't get me wrong its a good start but you wont end up with a finished engineer after two years. Perhaps it will fire some enthusiasm into some youngsters and get them interested for the long term.
     
  16. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    Bristol / Priddy
    I don't believe this has been mentioned as yet but to aid the discussion of the double chimney modification to the std 4 tanks there is a drawing of the proposed arrangement published in the following book.

    Pictorial Record of British Railways Standard Steam Locomotives
    ISBN: 0860931587

    Unfortunately I do not have my copy of the book to hand as i'm currently working away from home so cannot provide a page reference, prehaps somebody else will be able to oblige?

    The drawing is a side-on profile showing the blast arrangement and the inclusion of the double chimney could be easily missed unless you are looking for it. Hopefully this should add to the discussion although i'm not too sure on how much supporting information was provided.

    With regards to apprentiships I think it's a bit harsh to taint all youngsters with the same stick and be concerned about there commitment or ability. Look at Steve Masters at the ESR for instance. I believe he became the CME and completed his first restoration in charge at the age of 23 (or not far off!). The biggest problem I suspect would be getting suitable applicant's (entusiasm and long term commitment wise). I myself am 26, have been driving steam engines since the age 5 and do model engineering as a hobby. If I was going to take on an apprentiship it would be because of my career aspirations and this would extend far beyond the term of the training.

    At the end of the day you have to be pro-active about this topic. I get fed up about the older generations complaining about the lack of youngsters coming into this hobby only to then question there abilities. Yes there will be those who drop out but there will also be those who dedicate 60yrs + to the hobby. The bottom line is that you have to encourage these people and not suggest they will not be good enough to take on the mantle, after all if these people don't no one else will! I hope I can still travel behind a steam engine when I retire!

    I hope this doesn't come across as too bias from a younger generation, it's just a view of someone who prefers the optomistic view.

    Regards

    Paul
     
  17. chessie1

    chessie1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    103
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hants
    Ain't that the truth!

    Reading some ( I got bored ) of the Engineer's posts I do wonder how we (ie the preservation movement as a whole) have managed to turn out so many steam locos, and indeed locos certified for, and capable of much hard work on, the main line over the last 50 years. Common sense and inherent engineering ability has got us a long way without the theoretical grounding he seems to think is absolutely necessary.

    It has to be remembered we are not idiots.
     
  18. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    This is i agree a critical issue to the movement. Perhaps its time to start a new thread on training and apprenticeships generally, unless one of the younger chaps at MHS want to give their opinion on how skilled, schooled and sensible they are its a bit off thread.
    What i will say is the Lads who are into this are generally into it and keen to learn as much as they can and be good at what they do. All will benefit from time spent; at other railway workshops, on other rolling stock,with other old hands, reading the old texts (and some of these are pretty hard going), spending time at places like Meiningen. Even this forum sometimes fills its potential to be a useful source of information... As more and more 'Steamagers' drop their fires for the last time it is vital that the ones left open their hearts and minds to the ones that want to carry on with this and not begrudge the fact that they arent time served. What little time there is will i'm afraid, have to serve
     
  19. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    No one suggested anyone was an idiot or questioned their capability , but when you start to debate alterations to design, and who did what and why, it helps to have some technical background to understand the thoughts the original people had thats all. Many people have turned out refirbished loco's to a very high standard as you say. Not many have taken a clean sheet of paper and built a new design taking aspects from many designs.
     
  20. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    17
    Occupation:
    Maintenance supervisor
    Location:
    Bristol
    It is sad you take this attitude, if it is so boring and waffle as you refer, I put this question to you , why has there been 550 visits to this thread today, are alot of the readers interested in waffle ??
     

Share This Page