Mid Hants Railway Operational Matters

Nick

Afraid you will be! 6699, the Driving Trailer that is destined for the P-P set, came direct to SR from its use on the Chipmans weedkilling train. 6697, the Driving Trailer from the Mid Hants, had the body dismantled a couple of years ago due to being able to get a human between the chassis and the body side. The chassis for this was stored in Woodpecker the last time I went over the road.

1323, the Maunsell Third Open that also came from the Mid Hants around the same time, is destined for the P-P set (or at least was the last time I was involved with discussions about it), principally as I understand its the sole remaining authentic P-P TO.

 

Silly question, but were any of the locos preserved from the SR constituents ever fitted with push-pull gear? I know some (all?) of the preserved terriers saw use on push-pull workings on both the IOW and in LBSCR days, but was (300)53 ever fitted? Or for that matter (31)263 at the Bluebell?

 

There's photos of both 30053 and31263 with push-pull gear on the SEMG website. W8, W11 and W24 were all push-pull fitted at various times on the island.

 

263 on the Bluebell had push-pull gear at the end of its (pre-preservation) life.

I believe all four of the preserved P class locos were fitted for push-pull when originally built. I’ve never seen a detailed description, except that it was a wire-and-pulley job; the regulator handle on 323 has a prominent hole in the centre that I suspect was connected somehow to the linkage.

Tom

 

I was just wondering. So it wouldn't be incorrect to someday have 30053 refitted with Push-Pull gear. I think this would be my preferred choice for the equipment as the M7's were the archetypal SR Push-Pull loco by the 1950s/60s. Also it'd be incorrect to have the gear on 263 in that gorgeous SECR Green.

Are the IoWSR able to run push-pull services with the Ventnor West set?

I seem to recall that the P's were built for push-pull work (primarily).

 

A slight lack of push pull equipment on any of our Locos and incomplete equipment in the push pull set. To the best of my knowledge W8, W11 or W24 were never push pull fitted.

 

W8 and W24 certainly were - W24 was fitted when she first went to the island with W23, although I don't believe it was ever used - there were plans to run push-pull on the Ryde-Ventnor line. W8 with W13 ran the Ventnor West PP services in the '30s and '40s. The one I'm not sure of is W11 - though I think she was too, again for VW.

 

The LSWR P-P system was purely mechanical .... and decidedly primitive. The old LBSC pnuematic system was one of very few 'Brighton' standards taken up as the 'group standard' by the Southern. In theory, it could cope with three carriages fore and aft of the loco. The nearest I'm aware of to this maximim being employed was on the North Kent/Thanet routes in BR(S) days

Mike King's super volume An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock ( OXFORD PUBLISHING CO, 2006 ISBN: 9780860935964) gives a good overview of both systems and comprehensive lists (and oodles of piccies) of stock. Modellers will appreciate the number of drawings in the book.

I, for one, would dearly love to see a working P-P set. They really were an archetypal Southern feature sadly missing from our wonderful heritage lines. AFAIK, none of the final -Maunsell- conversions, done at the end of the fifties, survive, so (for thoroughly sensible safety reasons) we have no hope of seeing one on Wareham services again.

 

Does anyone have any records of what is was like to drive or be a passenger on a push pull set? It is just that drivers "feel" as well as hear the engine through delicate use of the controls, having them at the end of cables two coaches away must have lost some of that. I could imagine little M7s suddenly slipping through a slight overapplication of the regulator - or alternatively some very impressive acceleration away from some country stations! I also wonder whether the fireman may have stepped in occasionally to "assist" when the driver was at the other end. A chance to air some PP anecdotes here Tom!

 

Yes of course W8 and W11 were fitted, what was I thinking? Push pull on the Ventnor line with six coach trains would have been interesting.

 

It's been informally suggested that 30053 be fitted with an air pump on the smoke box perhaps during its current overhaul so that it at least cosmetically looks as it would have when it ran on the branch 'back in the day'. This would depend of course on a suitable Westinghouse A2 (2A?) pump being found and the time / finance to make it happen.

Unfortunately Its highly unlikely that 30053 will be fitted with the rest of the pneumatic push pull gear even when the Maunsell Push Pull set comes in service.

I don't think occasionally is the word. The reason we are unlikely to see an authentic Southern Railways pneumatic style push pull gear in service is that it never really worked reliably when applied to M7s. Contemporary accounts say that the when the driver was up at the front, the train was commonly driven with 'the pin out' on the regulator. The fireman essentially then controlled the regulator, cut-off and brake ejector (releasing the brakes) with the driver just controling the application of the brakes. This was against regulations of course and when inspectors were around they reluctantly muddled through as best they could.

I would speculate that any preservation operation of push pull would likely be achieved by having a driver at the front, a driver and fireman in the loco at the back and a really solid communications system between the two. I think the South Devon Railway did something like this with their GWR Autocoach. Even this would need a good risk assessment and rewrite of the rule book. Alternatively I could imagine a modern version using hydraulics [edit:] on the regulator instead of compressed air. Power potentially from a stones generator but you have to ask what the point of that would be and wether the end justifies the effort. It would at least allow the outward demonstration of push pull working without using up to much crew availability. Authenticity will clearly have taken a bit of a hit on close inspection.

I thought that might be the case but wasn't sure. I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news on the MHR thread and be wrong.

Its a great Push Pull discussion - sorry if anyone feels Swanage matters is hijacking the MHR thread.

 

I can't find the reference I thought I remembered!

Looking in Bradley, it seems they were intended for VW - "Nos. W23/4 were fitted with motor-train equipment and were intended for service on the Ventnor West branch ... After a few weeks service it was obvious to all concerned that their power was wasted on such humble duties and they were replaced by motor-train equipped Terriers" - being 9, 10, 11 & 12.

 

Yes, essentially the first two were built as a comparison with steam railcars, and were followed by six more to make a class of eight. Of those eight, the first six (including all the four currently preserved) were adapted for push/pull working; the last two not.

À propos the discussion about operations: the first two P class locos had lever reverse, and the initial push / pull control was by wire and pulley. So I am almost certain that reversing at least must have been in the control of the fireman on the footplate, and I find it hard to imagine that there can have been much fine control of the regulator. So my hunch is that in practice, if not in theory, the driver just controlled the brake. The first two locos had a steam reverser fitted at their first overhaul, along with a new design of compressed air operated push / pull equipment, but I cannot see how you could easily adapt the Stirling reverser for remote operation, so I suspect that was still done by the fireman, with the compressed air mechanism operating the regulator.

There are a couple of well-known photos knocking about showing a single loco between two ex-LCDR bogie carriages, for example here: https://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/SECR/GreenwichPark.html

Tom

 

I have talked to an ex GWR fireman from Pontypool Road and he said he learned to drive on the loco of an auto train when the push pull gear was disconnected.

 

Butts Bridge has gone folks
(Picture from Twitter)

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

That's a sad sight.

 

Oh dear, I liked that bridge. At least the replacement level crossing will hold up the traffic most admirably!

 

Why? It is an old bridge that buggered up the traffic in the town. It is being replaced by a new bridge that will probably aesthetically match the other Butts Bridge far better in truth, and in the process the railway will be compensated. As English Heritage commented when they declined to list the bridge...it is of a type common in the area and of no particular historic or architectural merit.

 

It was also frequently hit by lorries

Here is a link to a website showing progress plus an artists impression of the new bridge, which does indeed blend in with the existing steel span and brick abutments.

https://www.buttsbridgeroadworks.co.uk