If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Modern traction, stuff like Sprinters, Pacers, Voyagers. In future will people want to preserve them

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by toplight, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1,549
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The first MK 1 24726 appeared on the SVR in 1972 even then is was not in the best of condition and was scrapped in 1982. Today it would not hold any fears and would have been repaired, our capabilities have increased massively since those days. The MK 1 were not really withdrawn in one big hit, rather it was a slow decline which started in about 1970 and lasted approx 30 years. Many MK 1s were converted into EMUs and they lasted even longer.

    MK1s might be regarded by some in a derogatory manner, but it all depends on how they are presented and maintained. The early MK1s with wooden interiors are pure LMS, 24726 being an example :(
     
    pete2hogs and Cartman like this.
  2. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    958
    Likes Received:
    652
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    4350 on the ELR is this type, with the wood panelling and it is very smart. The fact that the railway had 14 years to work on it before the line opened probably helped!
     
  3. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    How many people who are pushing the "comfort" argument have traveled in modern units in a heritage setting with an open mind? I am not a huge "modern unit" fan as such, my allegiance will always be to First Generation, but perhaps some slightly unfair comparisons are being made...

    A Pacer's engines resonate with the interior at (something like) 60mph and give a rough ride on jointed track at that speed, and are draughty if you sit in one to Sheffield at -3 degrees with dodgy heaters, they can even occasionally leak water. This can't really be disputed. But how many times are you going to be inside a 142 at 60mph at -3 in a heritage railway setting? A few years ago I went on a birthday charter on a Class 141 on the Weardale Railway. It was a pacer. It was jointed track. But it was also September, the temperature was pleasant. As the vehicle was "pootling" at sub 25mph, it gained a rather rhythmic feel with the four wheels slowly "dum-dum-ing" over each joint with the engine revs reasonably low and happy sounding. With the autumn sun streaming through the windows onto my face as we passed through Weardale, I began to doubt my earlier view that second generation stock would be a no-no on heritage lines.

    Using the same argument in reverse, in the 1930's/1940's I doubt anyone who was sitting on a dirty Quad-Art set (rough riding, highly cramped, draughty and poorly presented) in London would have said "hey, in 40 years time I'm going to love this train". And yet today it is the jewel in the North Norfolk Railway's crown. When the Quads are used on a 1940's weekend, they can suffer from some pretty bad overcrowding around lunchtime and they are consequently very unpleasant to ride on. But people pack themselves in, in a strangely British way because they have come to the event and are hell bent on enjoying themselves! It just shows how people will "park" their criticisms regarding comfort if their brain is sufficiently distracted (i.e. by a cracking 1940's do!).

    I am not saying that in 50 years time all of the steam engines, mark 1's etc will be gone and replaced by Voyagers. I still feel that many of the other points regarding complex electronics, compatibility with braking and coupling systems etc are still valid and will affect how many (if any) of these future types are preserved. But I wouldn't write them off just because they are disliked and critisised by today's commuters and railway enthusiasts.

    Interesting thread by the way!
     
  4. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    9,021
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Lurking
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Although there's not been an update for some time, those restoring 89 001 have hit electronic problems in the past with it and have successfully dealt with them. I still say electronics are not insurmountable.
     
  5. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Regarding the views or lack of from Voyagers and their hatedness. I’m writing from a fgw hst. The seats are such that all I can see is the back of the seat in front and my seat is not aligned with a window. I’m not feeling the love for hsts at the moment.

    I am sure that any hsts that make it preservation will not have fgw high density seating and these seats. I’m pretty sure that voyager seating can be reconfigured to make them more pleasant. I haven’t travelled on a 15o for a while but i’m not sure all the seats line up there either.

    To add i’m not feeling the love for 450s at the moment but that comes recently being stuck on the three across seating between two serious manspreaders. Mate, your testicles are not made of fine china, put your legs together.

    One other factor, if the economy goes tits up there may not be any money for rolling stock renewals so the Voyagers may end up being run into the ground and never coming available.
     
    M59137 likes this.
  6. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The North Norfolk'd TSO 3868 is claimed to be the first Mark 1 preserved, in 1969! The NYMR received 3860 and 9235 in 1970, but I believe they were bought from Alan Pegler, so may well have been 'preserved' earlier.

    Either way, a good 30 years or so before the use of Mark 1s on loco hauled trains (North Wales Coast) finished and over 35 years before the last Mark 1 based EMUs went from the south!

    Steven
     
    HY_4273 and gwalkeriow like this.
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    7,822
    Likes Received:
    10,668
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Wasn't it the mid to late '80s that they were burning lines of Mk1s? Presumably that was the period most went.
     
  8. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    958
    Likes Received:
    652
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    On preservation of Voyagers and Pendolinos, I can see one driving coach of each type in the NRM, like the Japanese bullet train, and nothing much else. Of current electric units, hardly anything at all
     
  9. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    745
    Some of the modern units also have to be lifted as a complete train for maintenance. What preserved railway has space or money for that sort of facility? And on Voyagers and the like, to change a wheel bearing I believe you need to take the wheel off the axle. It’s a far cry from the sort of stock you can maintain with a crane and some wooden sleepers for packing. Quite aside from the electronics.

    Personally I’d like to see a 175 preserved, as an example of how not to design a DMU. It wouldn’t actually work, of course.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. Grashopper

    Grashopper New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    86
    Occupation:
    Assistant FLeet engineer Southern Railway
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    313201 is destined for the NRM as a representative of a 3rd(?) generation EMU. It's currently running around in BR Blue/Grey but sans BR logos (which have been produced) and all grey doors to remain PRM compliance.
     
  11. 5944

    5944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    2,331
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Maintainer for GTR at Hornsey
    Location:
    Letchworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Or a 180, where they improved on the 175 by running the control wiring right over the top of the engine. Plastic sheathing, hot confined space, yep that's going to end well!
     
    Bluenosejohn and pmh_74 like this.
  12. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,072
    Likes Received:
    8,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Only if you restrict visitors to your heritage line to those under 5'7"
     
  13. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Do they have to be? I'm pretty sure they just do that for convenience (far easier to swap a duff bogie lifting the whole set than splitting up and shunting the set). Remember how casting wheels and cylinder blocks was considered way above what the preservation world could ever achieve once.
     
    Monkey Magic likes this.
  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Would a 165 be acceptable - no tricky air conditioning to maintain.
     
  15. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    8,087
    Likes Received:
    3,905
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    31A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Horrible plastic airline seats though.
     
  16. Captain Fantastic

    Captain Fantastic New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    184
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Guido Killer Pimp
    Location:
    47603
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well I must say this is one of the most interesting threads for a while, with all this talk of modern stuff being too complicated etc, although at the moment that may appear to be true by the time the 3rd gen stuff comes up to be available the go into pres who today would be able to guess at the advances in computers to make more modern easier to maintain replacements so let's worry about that at the time, in 1982 when the 55's were being preserved BR said there was no chance a bunch of amateurs could keep them in good order.
    Also worth Pointing out the volenteers who will be doing the hard graft on them will have no memory of first gen diesel's in traffic let alone steam so I'm sure they will have an opinion on what they give up their free time to keep up, I know speaking of myself IF I was going to help on maintaining anything it would be what I remember from my youth, ie first gen BR diesels and certainly not any steam loco, it just doesn't mean anything to me personally so who's to say they in 20-25 years time won't want to work on stuff they have no personal memory off, why would they
     
  17. Captain Fantastic

    Captain Fantastic New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    184
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Guido Killer Pimp
    Location:
    47603
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Duplicate post
     
  18. Peter Wilde

    Peter Wilde New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    95
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, an interesting argument. On the modern stuff being too complicated, one difference between 20th century preservation and (say) mid 21st century preservation is this. The early steam preservationists started by collecting locos in (more or less) running order. When heavier repairs started being necessary, the process was very much aided by the availability of secondhand tooling and machinery. This has allowed places like Bluebell, the SDR and other major railways to build up well equipped workshops with the right specialised equipment.

    Where computer stuff is concerned, the situation is different. Old or faulty computers are not repaired, but scrapped and replaced by new-generation equipment - and this happens every very few years, as we all know to our cost! When it comes to replacing computerised components on 30 year old trains, circa 2040, will there be either spares available, or people with the know-how to use them or improvise replacements? I am inclined to bet against.
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  19. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    9,021
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Lurking
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I beg to differ. In my field of work I know plenty of people who design replacements for older hardware using modern equipment. Ultimately, in trains processors are responding to either on/off signals or proportional signals. After all, we replaced mechanical interlocking with computerised interlocking, did we not?
     
    Copper-capped likes this.
  20. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    680
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We did - but as little as 20 years after the first British Rail designed SSIs were commissioned, it became impossible to source Computer chips that ran slow enough to cope with BR SSI programming. Hence the development of SmartLoc and WestLock which are backwards compatible with the old lineside kit but have a totally new design.

    Thats the thing - 'metal bashing' is a relatively low tech skill area - as are building / repairing things like relays. Manufacturing new solid state chips to replace blown ones on the other hand is not easy.
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.

Share This Page