modern WHR motive power (what should happen? your views)

"I always found replies or posts from Roger Dimmock, sorry if the spelling is wrong, on the FR or WHR to be generally more informative or open and whilst he may think that some of us are fools for what we post or the questions we ask, you never get the impression he is anything but pleased to answer a question or correct an obvious error"

I second that 109%, (or am I being rude again?)

I have known the FR since before it was re-opened and have always been a supporter. IMO, it is the No1 steam railway in the World. Staff have always been helpful and friendly in my experience but if my first contact was with AndrewT, I would be supporting something else.

I think that any speculation for the future is premature. IMO, it is essential to see how an NG15 performs on the line. I think that this class of loco could well become the mainstay of the RhE in future. Let us give those guys at Dinas all the support we can give them.

It is a real skill to be a good PR person and frankly it is a most important position for an organisation dependent upon the goodwill of enthusiasts. I am not known for being polite but it takes one to know one!

I am glad that patrickalanbooth has not been deterred from being involved in this fabulous railway and I do hope he will continue to post.

 

Having no more knowledge than as a volunteer who often works on one of the locos listed, I'd say that the WHR has enough steam power already, what it needs are volunteers and money to get everything we already have restored. That would give us a fleet of four or five NGG16's, K1, and 2 NG15's. That should be plenty unless there are the resurces and business case for shuttle services at either end of the line, in which case some of the smaller locos (which, again, already exist, e.g. Mountaineer and the WHHR locos, if relations continue to thaw) could come into play. There are also plenty of small -to-medium diesels to restore if more are needed.

But there is definitly a need for a least one 'big diesel' as the workload on the Funkeys is knackering them.

I repeat, just my own views.

 

I deliberately did not mention the lot on the other side of town as I am not privy to the current state of relationships [IMHO they win hands down on the bookshop and cafe score just in case anyone from the FR/WHR is listening]. Don't want to reopen that debate but it is a great shame that there could not be better integration and some shorter journeys out of Porthmadog for those not having the time or money for a full round trip to Caernarfon. Am I right in thinking there was recently a test run with one of the 'Heritage' railways locos onto WHR metals? Anyway - what is the state of play with their Polish diesels. Are they of any use as supplements to the Funkeys?

 

I'd of thought the aim would be to have as many NG16's and Class 15's (or whatever the big tender engines are classed as) in operational condition as possible, purely for the reason that as far as im aware, nothing else is suitable for the full weight normal service (K1 included).

Think the suggestion of a Darjeeling loco is not the brightest, it's neither authentic now powerfull enough to be of much use, already have the Englands for the "showpony" role.

Unless you can lay your hands on more of the types above mentioned (unlikely), then new build is probably the way to go, though I'd of thought 75% availibility of the above, would more than cover WHR needs.

 

I suspect that traffic levels will be lower than last year for quite a long time and may never return in the forseeable future. While NG16s with ten coaches may be needed at peak times, more often than not, trains of 9 or 8 might very well suffice. It is here that the NG15s would pay their way. I think we could do with another one once we know how well they work.

I cannot see the K1 being anything other than 'heritage' frankly.

 

With respect I think you underestimate the abilities of the 'B' class. .Their tractive effort is higher than a double Fairlie and they must be considerably more powerful than the Englands. i have travelled behind them several times and it is a long and very steep route -I feel a bit stupid needing to describe it in such terms as it makes the FR and WHR look like a walk in the park. One journey took twelve hours and ,as far as I recall, only had one loco change. Of course the trains were somewhat shorter than currently run on the WHR. Coal and water capacity might also be a problem - the DHR trains stop quite a lot so replenishment is easier. Also don't see how the NGG15 and NGG16 can be described as 'authentic' as far as the British narrow gauge is concerned.

 

Relations with the WHHR are without doubt much more cordial than in the past, the WHHR AGM train a couple of weeks ago is evidence of that. And yes, the bookshop is dangerously good (it has relieved me of way too much cash over the years!).

If you don't want to do a full round trip why not change trains at Rhyd Ddu, or take a break of journey at Beddgelert, or get off at Nantmor and walk through the pass to Beddgelert and return from there? the fll round trip isn't compulsory!

 

A reasonable point(you are right I didn't expect a B to be that gutsy), but is it still enough horsepower ?, the Garratt's blow the Fairlies out the water for horsepower, so while the B class may be a gutsy thing, does it have enough horses for the job ?.

What im getting at is, there are enough low and medium powered loco's about for WHR needs (K1, Lyd or something borroiwed from FR traffic), It's loco's capable of handling the full length/weight WHR that are currently in short supply, the Fairlies mop up this role on the more easily graded FR, but something beefier like the 15's or 16's is needed on the WHR.

 

However gutsy the B classes may be, what was suggested was a C class, which I think was the Pacific .

 

The C class pacifics were built specifically for the Kisanganj extension which was on the flat bit of the line on the plain and not for use into the mountains. That line was converted to metre gauge and the locos were of no further use.It is less well known that the DHR had a 0-4-0 0-4-0 Beyer Garrett, one of the very first and built at about the same time as the K1 except that it was a simple rather than a compound.I think that must not have been a great success as it was soon rejected and no further locos of that type purchased. While in that part of the world I think I am correct in saying that the railway in Nepal may still have one or two 2-6-2 2-6-2 Beyer Garrets that were certainly working until not that long ago. They would be of 2' 6'' gauge.

To take up David's point I agree that the 15's and 16's are the obvious choice as the mainstay of the line - not sure if any more remain available in SA? I think I read recently that somone has purchased some of the remaining locos to restart a tourist service on the lines of the old 'Apple Express'.If in search of authenticity then obtaining a Baldwin 4-6-0T would be a 'must' , although getting one to work properly might replicate historical experience of that type! I think the other lot have one and if everyone is getting on well then such a sight may be possible.I think one or two remained out of use at some sugar plantation in India in the recent past and accordingto a list of surviving locos available on the Indian Railfans website.Such a loco would be ideal for shorter trains , in particular photo charters. I'm still itching to see what a C2 can do on either line.

 

Out of curiousity, what's a C2 capable of ?, I've seen phot's of them on freights in their native China, but without knowing train weights and gradients, I have no idea what they can shift, I presume as an 8 coupled type they are sure footed if nothing else.

 

C2_Project - I'll leave it to you to translate that into an answer!

 

Hi Guys

with the greatest of respect, I was referring to the class 'C' pacific 4-6-2 of which there are two examples doing sweet FA in India, both with a tractive effort of 22,000ibs which is more on par with the NGG16's and would look just as good next to the NG15's.

I also understand the main reason why they didn't go up the line was due to the very shape radius of the curves at places like agony point I think someone told me it was down to 1 chain or 22 yards, and not many 2ft gauge locos except the class B can do that.

As for the C2 as a rough estimate only and on the flat it should have a T.E of 10775Ibs if that helps

 

Certainly no shortage of horses with a C class then Lynbarn, only question mark I guess would be (after seeing Mickpops post) suitability, would would a Pacific designed for a flat bit of line cope with one thats very steep and twisty in places ?, could probably be adhesion being the issue with that one than outright power.

 

I've heard it said that the LyD2s are of similar power to the Funkeys, but since the WHR apparently now requires something even more powerful than the Funkeys I doubt they would be of much use. In any case, I'm sure the F&WHR will prefer to use their own locos as much as possible, so although we might get to see the LyD2s come out to play on gala days I doubt they will have much opportunity to contribute to day-to-day WHR services.

 

I was suprised to see that figure but they had very small wheels compared with other Indian ng pacifics so maybe that explains it. However both are 'doing sweet FA' because they are preserved as national monuments on public display rather than dumped out of sight so I can't see them being a realistic repatriation prospect [unless the North British Locomotive Society has exceptional powers of persuasion]. It would be a bit like someone from the US asking to buy one of the K&ESR USA tanks.

I was a bit out on the info on developments in SA. CR Journal reports that the planned use for NGG16s 139,151 and 156 + a.n.other is for the 'Banana Express from Paddock to Izingolweni. No 127 of the same class is being exported to the Puffing Billy Railway in Australia for spares. I've lost count of the disposition of the various surviving SA Garratts, ditto the Kalaharis - wonder if any remain available? A friend who spends a lot of time in SA told me that almost all stock left insecure is vandalised and stripped of removable parts and showed me some photos of the hulks of ng diesels.

 

NG 15 wise I tend to see them as the ladies (Linda, Blanche) equivalent for the WHR. Time will tell once 134 is ready.

As an infrequent volunteer there and having seen 134 in its journey of restoration I do look forward to the day it steams.

Duncan

 

Hi Mick

I understand that there where three NG15 that where stored in or near Port Elizabeth I think, but the guys at Sandstone took a look and found them all beyond repair as they had been standing next to the sea for to long so they where scrap

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welshhighland • View topic - BAD NEWS FROM SOUTH AFRICA

old STEAM LOCOMOTIVES in South Africa: Port Elizabeth - Humewood Road - Locomotive Graveyard

As for the 2 DHR C class Mick (sorry for the use of FA but this is one story which gets under my skin) I have heard of at least one attempt to bring them back, I understand that it nearly succeeded, but was told that local politics got in the way.

I have read somewhere that one of them was in the way a few years ago and it could have been scrapped, but it wasn't, because a group of Railway enthusiasts, just happen to know where it was and started taking photos, so indirectly they saved it again. But I don't know which campus that took place at. It is just typical, since at the time I was not that interest in the DHR.

In answer to David's question would they go up the WHR? I am not that much of an expert about them, but why not. I can't remember just how tight the S bend is just above Beddgelert (or Beth gelert) as this would most certainly be a case of heart rules the head if I got involved. I have just taken a look in the Terry Martin Book Halfway to Heaven about the DHR and it said that the center wheels where flangless and they could do the 75 ft diameter Loop 2 which was just below Tindharia, this was due to the fixed wheel base of 5ft9ins. However above Tindharia they would not have been suitable as the overall wheel base for the locomotive alone is far to long.

Getting it back to an FR theme, one Mr T J Spooner was in Darjeeling in 1884 to have a look over the line to see if a Double Fairlie could have operated over it, but the design was not suitable as the rail and road where to close and the gradient was also to sharp to keep the water in the two domes at a safe level.

Regards

Colin Rainsbury


Colin

 

If you want to see a Double Fairlie heading up the 1 in 40 S curves above Beddgelert, may I recommend the 1645 service from Port - Rhyd Ddu and back?

And they said Double Fairlies could never work over the WHR...

 

No doubt a stupid question, but why must we have one diesel with a huge engine? Why not 2, more easily available less powerful locos linked together when required USA style?