modern WHR motive power (what should happen? your views)

Hi John

I am not sure why it has never happen, but I wonder if it is a technological thing. Not quite as simple as DCC but the basic principle is the same. I recall they looked at doing something like this at Leighton Buzzard a few years ago, but the cost of the installation of the control equipment was quite high. Not only do you have to have control over the engine speed and most NG locos have manual gearboxes which I think was the stumbling point at Buzzard, but also the braking system and direction of travel as well.

You can control locomotives in one of two basis ways: either using electric control systems or a mechanical control system such as a pneumatics based system. If it was down to me I would go for the electrical control system every time as the principals are something I understand. The other thing is that a lot of the ex industrial medium sized NG diesel locos don’t always have an electrical supply under the bonnet, and that is another problem.

Back to looking at the BR book ‘Diesel Traction’ a manual for Enginemen to see if I can come up with a better answer

Regards

Colin

 

Thanks Colin. Control gear is easily available from the USA from the profusion of withdrawn locos. It has been used in the States for years so cannot be that hard!

 

Interesting thought, 2 Diesels working in Multi, I'd of thought this arrangement would be better than the class 13 "master and slave" arrangement as they could be split for maintenence and working independantly on lighter duties, if the technical aspect can be overcome then why not ?.

One question though - how would fuel consumption stack up using 2 Diesels in Multi compared to a monster sized Diesel (presumbly with monster thirst too) capable of doing the job solo ?, with Oil & Coal costs spiralling, this point will have ever greater significance in future.

 

There is an interesting discussion about the proposed big diesel here - link takes you to the page where your question is dealt with, but I found the whole discussion very interesting:
welshhighland • View topic - Diesel locos - 2011 take on an old topic

 

When notices like this appear in the peak timetable, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that the WHR is short of one, possibly even two locos:

A problem with loco availability has led to a cut back in the timetable from 8/8/12, presumably temporary. Due to essential locomotive maintenance, the 0810 Porthmadog – Rhyd Ddu and the 1000 Rhyd Ddu - Porthmadog services will not operate until further notice.

 

I stopped off by the line today to take a couple of photos - I run a couple of holiday cottages in the area and had a few jobs to do. The afternoon train from Porthmadog was, at best, half full. This was a sunny Saturday afternoon in the middle of the holiday season. It would be interesting to know what loadings are needed to cover costs. On today's levels trains could run with maybe two carriages less which would have an impact on the type of motive power required.

Saw both trains between Beddgelert and Rhyd Ddu hauled by the Garrats and got the northbound earlier in Aberglaslyn Pass which would have been a nice one but for the arrival at the last minute of the little girl dressed in overall pink who got in the shot! I'll put them up on my Zenfolio site

 

Hi Guys

I have been having a look at the MU working as the American call it, I have just came across the link below, which blew my mind and I though I had an understanding of the subject

US Loco MU Control


Regards

Colin

 

Hi Mick

is there a link to your photos please??

Regards

Colin

 

Zenfolio | Mick Pope - Railway Related | All Photographs - todays shots are in the 'British Narrow Gauge - New and Old gallery'. The wonders of Photoshop disposed of the girl in pink! There are some old DHR pictures in the 'Indian Narrow Gauge' gallery plus some recent ones in 'Darjeeling and Tipong Colliery 2011'. I am fairly sure I saw one of the DHR pacifics at New Jalpaiguri in 1980 but don't have a photo - I think we must have arrived just after dawn and the light was too poor.

 

As a rule of thumb, if the WHR first class carriage is full and the rest of the train is empty, it's turning a profit. Removing a couple of carriages would be a waste of time and effort as the train will still end up being hauled by a Garratt and they are well within their comfort zones with ten on.

 

Yes, but as said above the problem is a lack of _working_ locos - out of a stud of 6 (or7) large 'modern' locos there are only two currently available and only one other anywhere near completion. I can't imagine a timetable that would call for more than three of the big 'uns in steam except possibly at galas, so six ought to be adequate if only they were all restored (allowing for three max in service, one on standby and two in overhaul).

Nothing bought from overseas (unless maybe from another heritage line) would be in working order to UK standards, it would have to be overhauled, so - again - why not overhaul what we already have?

Did anyone doubt the Fairlies could be used? Seems strange, I thought they were (occasionally) used on the WHR in the first incarnation. But they aren't powerful enough and anyway I'm sure they are wanted on the FR normally - after all they are part of that line's USP. And even within the joint FR/WHR stock, there are plenty of small-to medium size locos for any shorter trains, K1, Mountaineer, Taliesin etc. etc. - its the normal tourist service full length trains that are the problem. (Though like most others I hope the WHHR locos come into play as well). And 'Half-empty' - well, tourists mostly don't like to be packed in like sardines, we aren't running the Friday service from Euston

I know nothing about the situation with the Polish diesels but I believe the sharpest curves are actually between Dinas and Waunfawr.

Disclaimers as before - I volunteer only, I'm not an engineer, I'm not privy to any information from on high.

 

I'm a Volunteer too and I thought the sharpest curves were between Rhyd Ddu and the Glaslyn, with curves up to 50m radius - all thanks to having to diverge from the original route.

 

Saturday being the day holidaymakers arrive or leave for home... hence why the FR runs a reduced timetable. A typical midweek day will be a very different story.

 

After all these pages of discussion there has been very little mention of the Fairatt proposal, despite the fact that its designer seems to be prepared to put his money where his mouth is to get it kick started. That, and his previous success in both designing and raising the funding for Lyd suggests to me that he will be successful in building this engine, which will hopefully provide an additional useful machine. Also, no-one has mentioned the Statfold Barn Mallet - how useful would that be as a stop gap if based on the line?

 

So the story goes the Statfold Mallet is not a fast engine, but personal what does that matter? if it can haul a WHR train set then so be it, if I had my way I would love to see it in Devon, but then the L&BR is a bit short at present for such a beast. Or may be it is that the FR/WHR work there engines and they didn't want to break it.

I think the reason the Fairatt has not been mention is due to this group not quite getting its head around the concept of the loco just yet. To be honest it is the sort of thing you would talk about over a beer in the pub and drawing it out on the back of a beer mat. But you know, for some one like James to take it to the next stage, just shows that this country has not lost the idea of experimenting with engineering principles, he should be applauded for taking this forward, If I had the cash it would be heading in this projects direction right now, as you never know what is going to come out of this.

Another thought is that didn't the steam age start in Cornwall with Richard Trevithick? So in a sense James is following in great foot steps....

Regards

Colin Rainsbury

 

The SBR Mallet was pretty much pushed up the hill to Beddgellert by the Earl when they were ran as a pair last Winter.

 

I have now been told the the very sharpest curve is in Portmadoc at the level crossing, but as that has a 5mph speed limit it is not in fact the 'limiting' curve. There are the double curves above Beddgelert station, but I don't think they are as sharp as the ones just as you come into the Gwrfai valley though they are certainly longer.

The Mallet, while very handsome, is neither fast nor powerful. I thoroughly enjoyed travelling behind it at last years gala, but it wouldn't stand a chance with a normal length train. I'm not sure everyone realises just how big the NGG16's and NG15's are compared to the other locos on the line.

Judging by the performance of the Ladies on the hill, the best design for new build might be a 2-4-0-0-4-2 Garratt!

 

The curve behind Bryn y Felin House between the top of the Pass and Beddgelert Cemetery is pretty much the tightest on the main line, but don't ask me the radius, even though it was my track gang that laid it.

 

Returning to the thread, it would appear that the RhE is really short of working locos at present.

Just to please AndrewT, my comments are just my own and do not represent the FR/RhE in any shape or form.

To operate Garratts at speed with the heavy loadings and experience the inevitable wheelslips will result in heavy and rapid wear. Garratts are double headed locomotives sharing one boiler so cannot continue to operate with a short load if one chassis requires urgent maintenance. The longer a loco 'clanks' the greater the damage will be, eventually resulting in loose or worn pins and worn hornblock guides etc. due to hammer. It is my understanding that both 87 and 143 are now 'clanking'.


138 is still in bits and again shows that mid term servicing of these locos is a slow and painful business. The K1, needless to say is still US and in my view will continue to be a bottomless maintenance pit. It would seem that the prospect of serviced spare bogies that can be quickly dropped under one of these machines is still a long way off and perhaps a way to quickly change connecting and coupling rod bearings needs to be devised. I watched a Gwalior Pacific having these bearings changed in one day and the loco was back in service next morning.

To me, the use of NG15s is a far more sensible solution even if a coach is shed from a consist. All the day dreaming about Welsh Ponies and whathaveyou seems to me to be fatuous until the RhE has stabilised and is able to withstand road failures without the need of cancellations.

 

On peak days there are seven trains in each direction on the FR and four on the WHR. The fifth WHR service, the 0810 Port - Rhyd Ddu service has been cancelled UFN due to a diesel, not a steam loco failure. The 1645 Port - Rhyd Ddu comprises a Double Fairlie and six carriages.

The Garratts are covering around 15,000 miles a year and each return trip involves fifty miles and climbing 1,300 feet. On the red timetable, currently in operation, both Garratts in service are covering 75 miles and climbing almost 2,000 feet every day.

If you can point me at a railway that operates a more intensive service, I would be extremely surprised.