Moorlands and City Railway

Errr, Paul

I was being sarcastic.......

 

That't why I "liked" it. Sarcasm is an argument failure best dealt with by mockery.

PH

 

Paul's views always come from the standpoint of the tricky business of keeping a heritage railway on a sound footing, which is a totally laudable objective. I thought that I had made it clear that my suggestions left The CVR entirely alone with its ambitions and left the MCR to develop its freight carrying objectives if it is able to do so. What I recognise, and so would Paul in relation to his Taunton to Minehead comments, is that the combined CVR/MCR would never be able to run an all-day every day commuter service from Stoke to Leek on a commercial basis. It would therefore be better for this to be a "normal" passenger service funded through the franchise system with infrastructure responsibility down to NR. I don't think that there is any reason why MCR could not be the franchisee, after all, the Island Line was once a stand-alone franchise. Alternatively the regional franchisee could run it with Stoke to Leekbrook handled on the "Whitby" basis.

My further suggestions of reinstating the whole loop as a public project are no more outrageous than some thought the Borders Railway was 20 years ago. The majority of the Beeching closures are no-hopers but here and there are examples where changing circumstances suggest otherwise. Remember withdrawal of the Stoke to Leek passenger service pre-dated Beeching, it was 1956 I think. Leek to North Rode went in 1960 leaving a dead-loss residual service from Leek to Uttoxeter until 1965. Transport needs in north Staffordshire have changed vastly in that 60 years.

 

Sorry I think you are putting forward a "solution" pre-determined by you and finding the reasons to justify said "solution" afterwards. We will wait to see about the Borders Railway in due course when things have settled down. It is essentially a political thing and politicians tend to see the world in a similar way to gricers. A ""wouldn't it be nice" world in fact, not always connected with reality!

PH

 

So Paul are there any railway expansions you would support?

 

Ultimately you have to get down to the economics of the operation: who pays for the reinstatement costs, and who makes good the losses in day to day operations. Saying that Network Rail should reinstate the line and MCR be the franchisee sounds great on the face of it - but is the political will there (and it would have to be at national government level) to pump in the money required, and does the MCR/CVR organisation have the wherewithal to carry out its side of such an operation?

 

Since you ask, running into Whitby commends itself as it links two nearby tourist attractions. In general though I don't think confusing the tourist railway function with that of a public transport provider is desirable and creates practical problems, for example, of ticket validity.

It wasn't long after the Talyllyn became "preserved" that someone started stumping the boards with lectures advocating railway preservation as the solution to the rural transport problem. Thus naive and sentimental gricers are nothing new but their ideas now are more grandiose and costly.

PH

 

I don't think that the Borders Railway was driven by gricers.

 

No it was driven by politicians doubtless encouraged by gricers..

I don't know how marginal politically the Borders are.

PH

 

That's what politicians are for, to respond to the wishes of those of their constituents who foresee the need for an improved public transport facility. Gricers pay taxes remember and all indications are that the railway is immensely appreciated. There was pretty universal agreement that this was one of the cruellest of the Beeching cuts. I have to conclude Paul that you judge public investment in railways by the principles applicable to heritage railway viability.

 

When the Borders Railway bill was passed (by the last Lab/LD government) Tweeddale was indeed a government (LD) marginal.

 

Please read post 2271. Actually, I judge public investment in railways by the number of people who will benefit. They are a means of mass transportation not a sop to gricers or an instrument for political calculation.

PH

 

Then add up the population in the Stoke to Leek corridor.

 

You continue to try and make the situation justify the conclusion. Tbe passenger service between Stoke and Leek died many years ago, before the era of mass car ownership. It died even before the Churnet Valley line.

It was vanquished by bus services in the hands of small independents. The vehicles were elderly and very slow. However they went from where people wanted (i.e. the centre of Hanley) to where they wanted to go (i.e. the centre of Leek). No need to plod uphill with shopping in the cold and rain from remote railway stations. (For those who don't know the area it is on the border of the Peak District. Hills mean hills).

The inhabitants are real people. Some will be elderly. Their priorities are unlikely to be those of the gricer.

PH

 

The drain works near Bradnop did not achieve much today. After the heavy rain over the last couple of weeks there was, not surprisingly, a fair bit of water flowing in the drain and bubbling up through the hole we dug before Christmas. Dug some more holes, introduced some drainage ditches and agreed that we needed a digger of some description. The saga continues.

 

But he is entirely right. No amount of sarcasm changes that cold reality. John mentions Marylebone to Oxford. Yes it may have started as blue sky thinking, but that would have been followed with a huge amount of research , cost modelling and the dreaded cost/benefit analysis, before even looking round for potential sources of funding. Just work the figures for yourself. Where would you borrow £50m, and what would you need to make in post tax profit to pay back the loan? When you start to think about how you are going to find (eg) £1000 per day interest on top of covering all your capex and opex from the fare box it starts to focus the mind somewhat. How many passengers does that equate to, per day, every day?

 

Looks like a good one to have missed @NeilL

 

Wimp!!

 

I've already put in two shifts on the Great Bradnop Geyser, but didn't spot you there Druid

 

Yes I had noticed that you had.

Bit of a drive for a 'day trip' for me................ I'd happily come along & put a shift in if tha'll ave me - though I'd need a bed for at least one night!