More Victorian/Edwardian Steam - The Alternative Way Ahead?

in theory there is a spare set of wheels ,cylinders and frames and a boiler from the S15 loco's whilst not exactly right, you could make an almost right replica, if the owners were so minded.

 

I've sometimes wondered about the feasibility of producing kits of parts that could be assembled into a variety of locos.

As an example, the boiler, cylinders and motion were shared between the Drummond M7 (0-4-4T); K10 (small wheeled 4-4-0), C8 (large wheeled 4-4-0) and 700 class (0-6-0), and the K10 and M7 shared wheels as well. So if you produced the necessary tooling and patterns to make those parts (and the myriad small components), then assembly into a 4-4-0, 0-4-4T or 0-6-0 would be relatively minor complexity once you had assured production of those components.

Moreover, Drummond and his brother worked on several Scottish railways as well, so I suspect if you looked, you would find broadly similar locos that could carry Caledonian / North British / LMS / LNER liveries. Compare for example the leading dimensions of the 700 goods and the Caledonian Jumbos; or the LSWR M7 / North British G7 and G8 / Caledonian 439 class. They aren't identical, but given suitable cosmetic detail, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference based around a common "core" of cylinders / boiler / wheels / motion.

The difficulty would be getting such a project off the ground, because someone would have to go first and build the first engine, and it would be probably unrealistic to expect potential future railways to chip in for patterns etc in the expectation of getting perhaps the second or third loco in the series. So someone would have to take the big financial risk and hope that they could then sell on the patterns and tooling for use by someone else.

Tom

 

We've discussed this before on the forum. Neither the boiler nor the frames are shared between S15 and H16. The wheelbase is different, boiler length different, boiler diameter different ...

Tom

 

Now I do like your idea of building one of the Drummond locos with commonality of parts, though as you've said yourself, somebody would have to take the plunge in building one of them.

I'd say the best option for your idea would be to go for the K10 and look into getting the folks at Swanage interested, since such a loco would be well suited to the line and it would be a good investment for their resident M7's future too.

 

I wish M&GN 50s boiler could be used to recreate....M&GN 50. Btw does anyone know where it did end up? I read it moved to a secret location in the north but never heard any more

 

The Swindon & Cricklade currently does not have an operational steam loco let alone an MSWJR specific loco sadly. The 2-6-0 (Galloping Alice/ Gertie/Whatever) exists as a complete loco in Australia and another dismantled in Australia (I think) as this type was originally built for export and the MSWJR bought 2 to augment their goods services to/from Southampton. There is a lovely model of an MSWJR 2-6-0 at Blunsdon but I think that's as far as the dream has got.

The MSWJR North British 4-4-0s were the Line's Edwardian flagships and one of these "would be nice" (Oh, I'll go straight to Hell for that one PH!)

 

I do believe a certain Mr Churchward got there before you Tom [gdr]

 

To be fair, so did Mr Drummond. Which is sort of my point!

Tom

 

Lovely looking loco, in a similar vein I think a S&DJR small Johnson 4-4-0 would be a nice new build project. For heritage line use it had smaller wheels than its Midland cousins and came in a nice shade of blue.

(Just daydreaming)

 

A Deeley "999" with the strange valve gear sorted and higher pressure (well it's got to earn its keep) would be great. Almost as cheap to maintain as the famous Midland 2P. I believe that it would out-perform a compound.

 

Without wishing to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for new-builds from the late Victorian & Edwardian periods, one serious (although not insurmountable) challenge is building up a sufficient level of interest to generate a good funding stream. With Tornado, the A1SLT was on to a winner, not least because the survival of the class until 1966 meant that even those enthusiasts who never saw one in the flesh (including myself) knew what an A1 looked like, knew they were highly regarded engines and would therefore have had few, if any, quibbles with the A1SLT's claim an A1 was one of the biggest omissions in preservation.

With a pre-grouping engine, particularly one from a class which became extinct in the 1950s or earlier, the locos would not have been so widely photgraphed or "copped", so far fewer enthusiasts would know much about them. There are some lovely engines depicted in the photos on thie thread, but in several cases, people have had to explain "this is what such and such a class looked like". No one needed to do that for Tornado and even a less glamorous engine like 82045 would be familiar to most enthusaists. With older engines, however, taking myself as an example, I'm reasonably clued up with the locos of all threee pre-grouping companies that made up the Southern as I've got personal or family connections with the areas they served, but if someone started talking to me about a long-extinct class of loco from, say, the Lancashire & Yorkshire or the Glasgow & South Western, I probably wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. The class of loco in question may indeed be worthy of a new-build project, but would it be so worthy as to persuade me to dip into my pockets?

Thankfully, some new build groups are prepared to rise to the challenge, including the L&NWR "George the Fifth" project, which strikes me as one that will complete its loco, albeit not anywhere near as quickly as the P2, the Patriot or 82045. Of course, the NER G5 project is well on the way to completion, but signficantly, this has been largely funded by a small group of people rather than through wider appeals. Likewise, Beachy Head had a huge head start by having a suitable boiler and being linked to a line built and operated by the same pre-grouping company. It would be great if some of these superb-looking locos one day saw the light of day, but although I won't get any "likes" for saying this, I don't think anyone should underestimate the challenge of turning a wish list into actual pieces of metal.

 

I'll give you a like John, because there is a lot of sense in that

In part that was why I was thinking along the lines of kits of parts: by choosing your prototype carefully, you might be able to tap into enthusiasts for the LSWR, NBR, Caledonian etc, albeit each group producing their own loco but with costs reduced by commonality of parts. But even then, I certainly wouldn't underestimate the difficulty.

It is interesting that there are a number of very early prototypes that have had successful new builds - Trevethick's locomotive, Stephenson's Locomotion, the various Rainhill contenders, Planet, Firefly, Lord of the Isles etc. I suspect in each case the prototypes were familiar to most enthusiasts from their historical significance and place in history - there can be few if any who need much convincing of the historical significance of "Rocket", or the gap being filled by "Firefly".

It is after about 1850 that things get much harder: there is a huge gap in preservation for mainline locos of the 1850s - 1870s sort of timeframe. A decent size 2-4-0 or 0-4-2 (tender or tank engine) would fill a significant gap not represented by any current operational loco and would be a fairly useful to many lines, especially if completed in conjunction with suitable Victorian carriages. Such a train would be unique in preservation. But the problem is which loco to choose: given the plethora of pre-grouping companies, the answer to that question probably says as much about your own personal railway preferences as any coherent view about which might actually be the archetypal version of the type.

Tom

 

So why is the P2 doing well then, as this class disappeared in 1944 and only people remember the ugly rebuilt ones which lasted until 1961.

 

Three owner groups of the GWR 45XX class own between them a master for the cylinder block which they hire out for other loco owners to use, so if the first one to build theirs could hire out to other groups, or if two groups are doing new builds at the same time both pay half of the cost.

 

There is one loco from that period that is 90% built, the Bloomer – albeit single-driver, so of less utility than a 2-4-0 or 0-4-2. Unless and until fundraising to complete that one is achieved, the prospects seem poor for anything else of similar size and period.

 

There are a couple of factors that has produced such momentum for the P2 which would not necessarily be be present with a new-build Victorian or Edwardian class which became extinct at a similar period. Firstly, it is being constucted by more or less the same group who built Tornado and which has therefore built up a great deal of credibility along with a good team in all the key positions. Secondly, while the P2s disappeared before nationalisation, Gresley had (and still has) a substantial fan club, helped by the fact that some of his most iconic locos - the A4s - lasted in service until 1966, which has kept his name and his work to the fore. Add to that the survival of the A2/2s until 1961, which would have caused the impressive performances of the original machines to be talked about after their rebuilding and you have a number of good reasons why building a replica of a class which vanished over 70 years ago has struck a chord with many people in a way which a group aiming to build a replica of a pre-grouping engine, even one with such fine credentials as an LSWR D15, would find very hard to replicate.

 

Do we honestly need more locos?

 

What not even a Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T for a certain Island based Railway? You could even get to drive it

 

I am above such pitiful self interest

Where is the collection box....lol