Narrow Gauge New Builds

Me too John, see what you mean now, but the "S" class is narrow gauge as well, the same gauge as the Isle of Man locos and just a smidgen larger - and I'd still love to see one....

Cheers,

Alan

 

Smaller than they look. For instance, way smaller than the West Clare 4-6-0t or The Swilly's 8-coupled Hudswell Clarke jobs. The dimensions which stick in my memory are 3'-9" drivers (same as the IoM locos) and the width of 7'-4". The only difference between the original Class S design and the S1 rebuild was in length, with a bit extra tacked on the back to carry more coal and the rear pony truck being lengthened to suit. One was ruined .... sorry .... rebuilt as a 2-4-4t with an (Irish) standard gauge boiler, classified S2 and looked bl**dy awful! It didn't work any too well either. Quite what the thinking behind that particular bright idea was is anyone's guess. The earliest examples were built by BP, the last, built at York Road Works were the last VonBorries compounds constructed in Britain, possibly the last built anywhere.

MOSI will flog you a copy of the GA drawing and official BP works photo if you ask 'em nicely.

 

There are plans a foot for a new build L&BR loco and it has all those elements of a Kitson/Mayer/ Fairlie/Garratt in it. The plan is to have a short boiler with a big firebox so it can burn the rubbish coal that will be about by then, there is still a lot of design work to be done on it yet but it is at present a bit more than just a pipe dream, the plan is to use all the data gathered together by the 5AT design team and if it is possible to apply it to this loco.

The current thinking is to us the same size wheels as on LYN and the Manning Wardles, in theory this should allow as a line speed of 33 mph as a rough calculation for every inch in dia you can run a loco at one extra mile per hour so if a steam locos wheel diameter is 25" it should be able to run at 25mph the L&BR locos wheels are 33" in dia.

To give you some idea what it might look like if you can imagine something like Moel Tryfan/Snowden Ranger but with two power bogies one being 6 wheeled under the boiler and the other a 4wheel powered bogie under the rear tank and coal space, you get the idea of what this could look like, but in practice it will be just as powerful as two Manning Wardles double heading.

I would like to add that this would be a private built private funded loco that is being designed so it could run on either the L&BR or FR but it is not a project connected to either railway

 

@lynbarn Something I've mentioned before, but between recreating the MW's and any proposed new design, there's an opportunity to be looking seriously at biofuel briquettes from torrefied biomass. I'd hope by now there's at least one UK University working on this sustainable source which has the potential to be a major boost to UK agriculture on marginal farming land.

It's not just me who thinks so: http://csrail.org/

 

Something along these lines then, as suggested by James Evans for the WHR some years ago. Whatever he called it, it looks as a Kitson Meyer to me, while if the rear tank sits on the power bogie it becomes a Golwé.

 

As far as I am aware the only plans the L&B have, are for new build MW tanks at some point in the future. I have never seen any reference to the loco you mention Colin. I think you should make clear distinction between something planned by the L&B and something you'd like to see or is being planned by a third party.


Keith

 

Hi Keith


Sure I though I had, if not sorry for the confusion if it has caused any. I would like to state for the record that this is a private locomotive venture which will gather the financing which will come from Individuals, Trusts, Charities and Corporate Sponsorship.

There are a number of legal procedures to go through first of all, least of all the setting up of a corporate body which will not only own the locomotive once it is built. But also act as a funding channel into the project as well.

I don’t expect anything major to happen for a while since there is a lot of engineering design and theory to work out first of all.

The world of advanced steam engineering is something to embrace and as far as I am aware no one has yet gather all these idea together and sorted them out one by one to see if they are practical or even useful, they did try some of them on the 5AT project but being a standard gauge project it requires big bucks, it makes more sense to try them out on a 60cm gauge loco first of all and if they all work move it all on to a standard gauge design at a later date.

I will suggest that once it is advanced enough I will bring this back here for a proper launch on NP.

 

I wonder whether anyone in this nascent plan has actually asked the L&B Trust whether they would host such a loco if by some chance it actually got built? I guess there are other places it could go, but I do know that often senior trust officers are a bit chary of the number of notions and ideas that non-trust officers come up with, blithely assuming the railway will welcome them....

 

Hi Dag yes the plan is for something along those lines so it can fit both the FR and L&BR loading gauges

Yes and why not it is this sort of thinking we shall be looking at, the good old days of getting good quality coal may be drawing to a close, hence the reason for this project and the need for a large firebox and a short and fat boiler, one idea that will be considered is the linking boiler, instead of letting the boiler cool down after the fire has been dropped, two high press hoses will be connected to the locomotive to form part of a external steam circuit, what will happen in effect will be that an external immersion heater boiler will circulate hot water through the boiler at about 70 degs overnight so in the morning the boiler will not have cooled down as much as they do in a convention manor but it will be a lot easier to return the loco to full working pressure in a reasonable time frame, prep time will also be reduced and the amount of time oiling up can also be reduced due to all or most of the bearing surfaces being feed from a central oil feed station on the locomotive, which will only need topping up at the beginning and at the end of the day.

Other suggestions we need to look at is the use of ceramic bearing surfaces as used in high performance cars, now they do get hot so it might just be a bit of a transfer of technology from one part of engineering to another.

 

@lynbarn That's one of the most encouraging posts I've read on NP. Although passingly familiar with the ceramic bearings, as being trialled elsewhere (thank you Barrie Hughes!), the boiler circuit development you mention is a new one on me. I confess I'm none too well up on temperature coefficients of boiler steel (is expansion with temperature a linear progression? I know ... look it up!), but anything to relieve stress by reducing the temperature range a boiler experiences is bound to reduce maintenance costs and prolong the life of the most expensive 'consumable' on a steam loco.

Along with availability/affordability issues surrounding MKI steam coal, there's the matter of consistency. Fuel from torrified biomass should prove far more consistent in quality as well as being able to be supplied in a variety of interesting bouquets (sorry ... just threw that in to horrify the hardline traditionalists!). One to watch, methinks.

 

As far as I am aware James has mentioned it to them, but I got the impression they will only entertain the idea if it fly's by itself which is why I think the railway needs to be patient until a fully costed business plan has been drawn up and once we are at that stage then it will be presented to the Trust for it's analysis.

After all what is mostly said on here can only be regarded as a chat down the pub and wishful thinking

 

Ah, so it's going to be a flying locomotive?

 

Graphene construction and pressurised hydrogen should do the job nicely. Just don't have anyone my size on the footplate!

 

How much use is a single much more powerful loco. The L&B seem to be intending to recreate the L&B of old updating technology where appropriate. Where would a single giant modern articulated loco fit in timetabling a line run by Lyn and several Manning Wardle 2-6-2Ts? Unless it was intended to routinely double head. The revived line is never likely to be as long as the original, though a steeper grade may prove necessary up to Wistlandpound Reservoir.

The Welsh Highland were in a very different situation as the full length of that line was originally only open for a few years and never operated effectively

 

For a line as long as just Blackmoor Gate (or Exmoor Parkway - take your pick!) to Lynton, in all honesty - not much, but it's reasonably apparent I'm not the only one who feels a smidgen of optimism for the longer term prospects for the revived L&B doesn't do any harm.

 

Certainly not me. The charm of the recreated L&B is to see Manning Wardles and the like, as far as possible recreating the original line. Speculative new builds of designs that have no historic precedence does nothing for me I'm afraid; likewise I can see zero attraction in running ex-SAR Garratts and the like.

Tom

 

Fair enough ... I always appreciate an honestly held opinion.

 

ex SAR Garratts are to big, but also don't forget they are almost 50 years old.

As for the proposal the whole reason is that in say 10 to 15 years time you have to ask your self who is going to be driving these things one of these wee beasties will be cheaper to run and be able to do the job of a double header.

Part of the concept is to keep what ever railway it will run on commercial viable.

 

I believe that external heaters are used in the USA on some steamers.

 

Hi Paul my idea was borrowed from the German rack Brienz Rothorn Railway,

The major difference is that the German railway locos have an Immersion heater fitted into the boiler.

Where as the suggesting I have made makes use of being able to clean out a boiler of any slug and solids over night with a cocktail of warm water and a chemical cleaning mixture, in theory it should keep the loco in use for a longer period of time with out any of the stress which happen when you cool down and heat up steel everyday.