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National lineside permits

Discussion in 'Photography' started by 73129, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. 73129

    73129 Member

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    Reading Mr. Paul Chancellor article in this months Steam Railway magazine (Mailbag) about line side permits which Ed raised in a previous issue of SR magazine. Has some big obstacles to over come before any preserved railway could consider joining such a scheme.

    1. How could a national permit be revoked if someone continues to be a risk to him/her self and to others when line side. Would you be given a warning first or just revoke the permit? And how would a permit be revoked if there is no way of identifying a rule breaker?

    2. If someone is visiting a railway for the first time and doesn’t live locally how would they know the do’s and don’ts of a particular railway (boundary areas that are off limits and so on). Not every permit holder would bother finding out.

    3. Would there be a limit to how many people that could go line side before there is an over crowding issue line side which could make the loco crews job impossible to cope with. For example when 60163 Tornado visit’s the Bluebell railway and a permit system was in place could the BB cope with a big influxes of permit holder in a safe manger with out compromising health and safety?

    4. If someone was to have an accident would the railway be accountable or would it be enter at your own risk? There is always someone that would consider legal action.
     
  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    On many railways before going lineside you are required to sign in and that way you would receive pertinent information relevant to that line. If found lineside without having signed in you could be reported and name cascaded to other railways as having broken terms of pass
     
  3. pennysteam

    pennysteam New Member

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    I suggested something along these lines around a year ago on another thread, basically there would be a national test that could be taken at several recognized railways that would provide you with the national pass. However you would still have to purchase a local pass and get the relevant details as we do now on most railways. The trouble with the PTS system is it inflates cost and makes things impractical for people to line side on railways they can not get to often. For instance I haven't yet managed to get to Blue bell, I am not going to travel all the way down from Sheffield to sit a PTS, wait several weeks to get my pass and then have to travel down to the relevant event, add to this the over all cost of doing so of which most of the money will not go to any railway.

    Secondly the likely outcome of going PTS is in the event more people will just line side without any pass, we all see a good number already doing this, many without an high vis as well.
     
  4. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    It would be nice if the 'Heritage Railways Association' took the lead on this.

    Regards
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    I did posit on this forum some time ago the suggestion that the lineside pass should be issued to qualified persons by a Preserved Railway for a reasonable fee ( that gives income to the issuing railway ), that the issue should be under the auspices of the Heritage Railways Association and that each time a permit holder visits a heritage line then he / she should present themselves at a station to sign a book and pay a fee then receive a sheet of local restrictions which apply to the railway being visited ( and gives income to that railway ).

    The pass is treated as a licence but renewed by the issuing railway each year and if any breaches of rules arise it be reported to the issuing railway which then issues the appropriate penalty points against the permit. When the points reach the maximum the permit should then be withdrawn for a specified period.

    In this situation the HRA contributes by setting the appropriate qualifications that heritage lines will accept ( age / tests to be passed before permit issue / disabilities to be monitored ), the penalty for breaches of regulations ( i.e. whether from a national tariff or for each railway to have its own tariff to reflect the seriousness of the breach to that line ) and act as the Court of Last Appeal in case of challenges to breaches and / or penalties.

    This has been a bee in my bonnet for some time but each time I posit the thought it appears to be rejected by those with the power to enact / moderate it yet there still remains a demand for some authoritative system that encourages rather discourages railway photographers.
     
  6. 73129

    73129 Member

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    Reading the latest issue of SR. The WSR could be permanently revoking lineside photographic passes from next year under safety grounds. I wonder if other railway will follow suit and revoke their line side passes. I know one or two railways that don't allow line side photography already but has time catched up with us and our hobby of lineside photography apart from line side photo charters.
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    How much would the proponents of this suggested scheme be prepared to pay for a national pass?
     
  8. 73129

    73129 Member

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    If you look the thread goes back to 2009. I just wonder if time is catching up with lineside photography and it won't be to long before all railways stop line side photograph apart from photo charters.
     
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  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I appreciate it's an old thread but thought I'd pose the question anyway. If photographers take a PTS exam, I can't see a problem with passes being issued to those who pass the test.
     
  10. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    As a way of getting lineside passes to continue.
    Would those who want the passes be prepared to pay out for the provision of a COSS and Look Out?
    Together with all relevant paperwork.
     
  11. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    They won't it just means people will trespass instead and the railway will make nothing out of it
     
  12. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Certainly not, why would you need a lookout?
     
  13. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    To ensure the safety of the photographer.
     
  14. 46236

    46236 Member

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    and a 'minder' for when we cross the road
     
  15. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    So who ensures safety of the lookout? Seriously that is a ridiculous suggestion, photographers are intelligent adults and if they can survive the much more dangerous environment of the road journey to reach the railway I'm sure they can look after themselves. It's this sort of nonsense that makes this country a laughing stock.
     
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  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I get that minders are required sometimes for staff on the line as they might be distracted with the work they are carrying out, having ear defenders on or whatever, but surely a photographer's only business is to be aware of any trains coming, so it won't make much of a difference.

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  17. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    As is usual with this topic far too many people overlook the role of legislation - particularly ROGS.

    Under ROGS each individual railway MUST produce their own BESPOKE ( not some sort of 'generic' Heritage railway one) SMS (Safety Management System) - and said SMS MUST address things such as how the infrastructure provider determines people are competent to be present on the company's infrastructure.

    The ORR have, and will, shut down any railway whose SMS is found to be deficient - ROGS legislation has been a legal requirement for several years no and there are no excuses for not having one that fully meets the requirements in all respects.

    For example Network Rail has its own PTS traing, assessment and recertification procedures laid out in its SMS, but having a NR PTS that does not give authority for NR staff to start wandering about on London Underground Infrastructure - despite certain similarities with NR lines south of the Thames. As with any other railway infrastructure provider NRs PTS is bespoke and geared around the needs of complying with NRs SMS - not anybody elses. True some elements may be 'transferable' between different infrastructure providers but that does not excuse any organisation from not having their own process to determine compliance and simply relying on something 'similar'.

    Thus within the Heritage world - while a PTS issued by one railway may well seem the same as one issued by another, that is no defence against the ORR if something went wrong. They would demand to see what proof railway X had that the PTS issued by railway Y covered all the risks associated with railway X and how railway X could prove the individual understood what was required from them.

    The obvious answer to the above is to ensure the individual passes the PTS course run at railway X and again at Railway Y, thus ensuring both railways have correctly addressed the risks and thus have a SMS fit for purpose should anything happen to the individual.

    Yes it may well be called 'arse covering' by some, but the plain fact is that no railway is immune to prosecution by the ORR and as such they have a duty to protect themselves - however much it inconveniences photographers etc.
     
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  18. Romsey

    Romsey Member

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    Post deleted, post by phil - d259 explains things in more detail.

    Cheers, Neil
     
  19. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Part of the furniture

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    Maybe you should shove that lot under the noses of those on the WSR thread who have been moaning like drains about the withdrawal of lineside passes - then maybe, just maybe the penny will drop!.......
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Roughly translated it means jobs for those in parasite industries. The obvious answer is to go back to some common sense but those holding the non jobs won't give up. The lunatics have been in charge of the asylum for a long time now. As I said before in reality it will mean more trespass and the railway making nothing from it
     

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