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National lineside permits

Discussion in 'Photography' started by 73129, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Only because people seem to have trouble understanding the driving force in all this is legislation passed by the Westminster Parliament and which all Heritage Railways are legally bound. ROGS is not some abstract set of rules - it has been deliberately drafted so it deeply reaches into every single aspect of a railways operation - from lineside passes, to driver training, the need to comply with ROGS is ever present.

    People should also note that the emphasis of ROGS is also very different from previous legislation in how it works. Previously the HMRI tended to be the one taking the lead, setting down the rules / best practice for other organisations to follow. With ROGS the emphasis is very different, bodies like the HMRI no longer take a lead role. For example they will no longer offer detailed advise of resignalling plans - under ROGS the HMRI expect to see is that (i) the railway has correctly identified the risks (ii) commissioned an independent report by a competent person / organisation (with details as to why) who demonstrates how those risks have been mitigated. In other words the HMRI say "Its your railway, you show us how you have mitigated the risks". Similarly should an incident occur the "ORR" do not go round with some form of checklist of items they want to see - instead they pull apart the SMS with a fine tooth-comb, looking for risks that have not bee addressed.

    Thus if a lineside photographer was seriously injured / killed by a train while on a Heritage railways infrastructure, the ORRs first question is not "did they have PTS" - its actually "how does your SMS address the risks of persons on your non -publicly accessible infrastructure", including how those risks were identified, what mitigating measures were in place, how the training, testing , recertification procedure demonstrates these risks have been minimised etc. A PTS in itself is meaningless - its the background to the issuing / acceptance of said PTS that is vital to ensuring the railway is not prosecuted / fined by the ORR.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  2. 7P6F

    7P6F Part of the furniture

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    Compared to other leisure pursuits such as cycling with over 100 deaths per year, line side photography seems pretty safe on zero. If you want disproportionate draconian legislation applied to 25 mph tourist lines and it is disregarded will you be then championing the erection of palisade fencing as the solution to this non problem.
     
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  3. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Apart from the photographer who got hit by a passing train at GCR a few years back, whilst concentrating on a train on the other side... Or the photographer who fell at Bewdley earlier this year, or the photographer who stood in the four-foot at MHR Diesel Gala a few years back. All incidents, whether they are near-misses or not, and all need to have provision for within the SMS as Phil correctly states.
    An attitude like this has no place in the modern railway - preserved or not. Heritage Railways can't keep a heritage attitude towards safety, they need to evolve with the time whether we like the evolution or not. To dismiss it so freely shows a clear lack of understanding, one that is dangerous for the individual and railway(s) concerned. These days it is a legal requirement to have a solution to every scenario written down, no matter how small the chances of it arising are. So you either "play the game" correctly, or get out. Not do as I've done for the past 40+ years because that is what I've always done.
     
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  4. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Wouldn't that situation be covered by the requirement of a photographer with an LSP being required to first sign-in at any Heritage Line (other than that which issued his LSP) to both pay a Visitors Fee and collect a set of instructions peculiar to the line being visited (e.g. hazard locations; locations where presence is not permitted (e.g. tunnels; locations with limited clearances etc); access to adjacent properties).

    Whilst I acknowledge that the present situation sees that lines have different levels of testing and many heritage line volunteers also work on the Network hence have Network PTS certification I also feel that the question of LSPs needs to both clarified and regulated. I would accept that there will be two levels of trackside experience - those with Network PTS and those seeking heritage line access only. The former group I could accept being granted an LSP but I feel PTS-holders still need to be issued one by a heritage line albeit without test whilst the latter group would need to undergo training / testing in a new national standard lineside access test that should be established by the HRA in consultation with heritage lines, administered locally by the heritage line(s) but be the responsibility of the HRA as the Court of Last Appeal.

    I also agree that there will need to be much correlation with ROGS but I venture to suggest that the question of Heritage Line Lineside Access is one that needs to be dealt with; to ignore it - as some lines seek to do - is not an option and to hope it is a problem that will disappear in time is also not an option to consider. Accept that an LSP is always likely to be in demand; accept that it can generate both income and goodwill then create the framework that it can use to meet the needs of income for the movement whilst meeting both its legitimate safety concerns and acceptance as part of any approved SMS.
     
  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    This thread - and the similar on the WSR - has highlighted that lineside passes are also very capable of generating costs and ill-will.
     
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  6. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    It is not a question of whether or not anybody 'wants' draconian legislation, the legislation is already there, in the shape of ROGS. Most heritage railways seek a way to accommodate lineside passes within their SMS, but as has already been stated, it would only take one serious incident to result in guidance from the powers that be that this facility should be severely curtailed or stopped altogether. We have already seen from the West Somerset Railway discussions that the possibiity of insurance companies declining to cover the risk may also have a bearing on the future of lineside passes.

    It is incorrect to state that there have been no fatalities to lineside photographers on heritage railways. A well known photogragher fell to his death from Victoria Bridge on the SVR in August 1976.
     
  7. 7P6F

    7P6F Part of the furniture

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    Falling asleep on a bridge parapet is hardly an identifiable risk for those engaged in lineside photography.
     
  8. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Nor any other line side activity.
     
  9. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    If that is what happened in 1976, then I would argue that it is not just identifiable but identified. As was the issue of exhaustion in the near miss at Shawford that was the subject of a recent RAIB report - the sort of exhaustion that might arise from driving through the night for pictures, as a couple of posters have said they did on Sunday.
     
  10. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    The point being that if this incident had occurred in 2016 rather than 1976, there would have been major repercussions for the SVR with involvement of outside regulatory bodies, which would probably have resulted in the enforced withdrawal of the lineside photographic pass facility. Times, and legislation, move on.

    Whilst I personally hope that they remain a feature for many years to come, everyone concerned would do well to remember that lineside photographic passes are a privilege, not a right, and that heritage railways are under no obligation to provide them.

    Regards

    Andy
     
  11. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    From the RAIB website.
    Speed lower than or similar to what could be expected on a heritage line.

    Member of staff struck by train near Poole, Dorset, 12 July 2013 (RAIB bulletin 04/2013)
    M48 A signalling technician, walking alongside the track a short distance south-east of Poole High Street level crossing, was struck a glancing blow by a train travelling at about 15 mph (23 km/h) that had approached from behind him and which he had not been aware of. He was slightly hurt, but did not require hospital treatment. M49 The cause of the accident was that the technician did not remain alert to trains approaching from behind him while he was walking alongside the line. He had been briefed that trains could run in both directions on the adjacent up line, but had not registered this as a likely event because he had not seen it happen in that area before (although he had been working on the project for two weeks, he had only done about thirty minutes work on the line east of Poole level crossing before the day of the accident, and had not seen a train use the crossover).
     
  12. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Line Side photography has been around for years. I wonder how many photographers have been injured over the last fithty years. Most photographers will know how to conduct them selves on or near a perserved railway line. What's next to be banned under H&S. Will we one day see volunteers banned from working on rolling stock due to not have any training with recognised railway industry certificates.
     
  13. tor-cyan

    tor-cyan Well-Known Member

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    I just hate this false circular argument that as nothing has happened for X years in the past nothing will happen in the future so why bother changing things
    So I would just like to point out that in the last 10 years my cats have never died before

    Colin
     
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  14. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Simply collecting a piece of paper is not good enough for the ORR - you need to be able to prove that the contents have been fully understood - which in turn means not only must the person giving the briefing be certified as competent to deliver such training, but some sort of test is needed after that to provide evidence to the ORR that the PTS process is fit for purpose.

    On NR that is why a PTS is time limited and holders must undergo a retest after 2 years - something he ORR will expect to see on Heritage Railways too.

    Again people need to understand this is how ROGS works - the emphasis is the specific railway concerned must be able to prove they have taken all possible precautions, anything less says that the railways SMS (a legal requiremnt under ROGS) is flawed - a sort of 'guilty until proved innocent' approch to things, admittedly but thats how it works these days when the legal profession is allowed to run wild.

    On many railways the PTS is effective as soon as the candidate passes the test - however most Heritage railways cannot have a suitable trainer hanging round on the off chance that a photographer may want a PTS certificate on any given day. Hence the introduction of regular photographers PTS sesions at the likes of the Bluebell where a competent (as defined by the SMS & ROGS) trainer can arrange to be present, perform the briefing and conduct the necessary knowledge test.
     
  15. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    But unfortunately it's the way the country has become. You say that "photographers are intelligent adults" but can you categorically confirm that for every single one? We've all seen the near misses posted on YouTube and the likes. The art of "common sense" has all but been thrashed out of the railway industry now with legislation and H&S regulations. As it has been described to me, what is common sense to one person is not necessarily the same as another and with the "where there's blame, there's a claim" Would you be prepared to put your name on a piece of paper saying that Mr A and Mrs C are competent to be lineside unattended? This is basically what is being asked of the lines and I can understand why the lines are taking this stance. This is the dilemma the lines now face.

    In answer to your question, who is responsible for the lookout's safety? On NR, Lookouts are positioned by a COSS in a position of safety and it is the COSS who is ultimately responsible for their safety. This position of safety is a location pre planned and the Lookout signs that he understands this. Their ONLY role is to provide a warning of a train approaching from that position. To get this far will have taken at least 48 hours to ensure all parties have been notified of the requirements and relevant safety packs drawn up. Yes we are talking about mainlines with trains running at up to 100mph but the implications for any organisation should an incident occur resulting in death or serious injury, the punishment is the same.

    Having now read back, Phil-d259 said pretty much the same thing but put it in a much better way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agree it's the law that needs changing all this has done it to provide jobs for the parasites who want to regulate every aspect of life until it won't be worth living. It's a matter of degree and common sense. If I want a photo permit on the Bluebell I will need to expose myself to far more danger than anything I will do at the lineside by travelling halfway round the M25 to attend the training session. I haven't seen any of the YouTube near misses that were at the lineside of a heritage railway.
     
  17. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

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    That's what it is on the MHR for those of us daft enough to volunteer & need one to work lineside.

    Photting from the lineside for us is a bonus/privilege - downside to that at galas, is having to turf chancers back to the right side of the boundary & polite requests from them to vacate are more often than not met with a mouthful of abuse.

    I have yet to make that phone call that would bring trains to a halt & throw the TT into chaos, but I've come close.........
     
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  18. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Unfortunately its not something the Bluebell, or the Heritage Railway association, etc can do anything about.

    Those who do have the power to change the situation (by altering the legislation) are currently going round canvassing for your vote so they can return to the Place of Westminster on the 9th June this year, but I somehow doubt that the plight of lineside photographers will be uppermost in their minds when they ask for your vote......
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  19. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Those companies only succeed due to the appetite of Joe public to make claims as a way of making a few Bob.

    Sadly to blame the claim companies (who are a complete pain in the backside) would be to go down the now popular conclusion of 'always someone elses fault'

    (Spoken as someone who used to have to review public claims at a national organisation and you wouldn't believe what they would claim for!)



    Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    It seems not just lineside photography the nanny state extends a lot further than that
     

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