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New Boiler Inspection Rules?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Steve, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. 30854

    30854 Active Member

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    Absolutely. TE is just an impressive and theoretical headline number. Always was, always will be. It simply takes no account of most key design elements.

    The distribution of adhesive weight is just one other factor. That last "-2" on a pacific will always render a 4-6-2 less surefooted than a 4-6-0 of slightly lower nominal TE. That's before you hit considerations such as a decent steam circuit (cough .... "Pendennis Castle"). How many promising looking designs were poor performers because they couldn't effectively use all that steam the poor old fireman shovelled himself to exhaustion to produce?

    As always, t'ain't just what you've got...... it's how you use it that counts!
     
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  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Well-Known Member

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    As was demonstrated by Flying Scotsman on the WSR - I think that Panniers have also demonstrated their superiority over large wheeled express locos on the Paignton & Dartmouth
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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    That would need a lot more power than any steam loco that has ever run in Britain. To get that power you would need either a much bigger boiler, which is impossible within the British loading gauge, or to make much more efficient use of the steam, which is possible in principle but would require major improvements in various aspects of design.
     
  4. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member Account Suspended

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    Well, considering nobody ever got near the maximum steaming capacity of the MN, and a 4-6-4 version could have bigger driving wheels and a bigger firebox, so a slightly longer barrel, bigger thermic syphons and a 70sqft grate, fed by a mechanical stoker... possibly use Caprotti valve gear...
     
  5. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    The maximum output of a MN boiler was, I believe, 41,000lb/ hour. A Stanier 1X boiler produced 41,500lb/hour. That wasn't the maximum the boiler could produce but the maximum the engine could take without slipping.
     
  6. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Well-Known Member

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    Given that David Wardale managed to get 15% thermal efficiency across the entire steaming range with the SAR Class 26 which achieved 4492 IHP/3787 EDHP there seems to be the potential to develop quite a lot of power even within the UK loading gauge
     
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  7. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    Back to the OP of New Boiler Inspection Rules, I'm guessing that we are looking at a practice run here, for about 30 years insurance companies and similar bodies have hidden behind 'Brussells' 'New European Rulings' 'European Health And Safety' and any other lie that can be attributed to 'Europe'. In the next couple of years that's all got to stop, they can't hide behind, or blame 'Europe' any more, they've managed to get a fair idea of how gullible we, as a movement can be, now they've got to try to push their luck and find something else to hide behind. As a 'Historical' guide, think back to 'Duke of Gloucester''s first restoration.
     
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  8. W.Williams

    W.Williams Member

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    What are you talking about? What relevance does the EU have here? Or are you just taking issue with the HSE act, one of the foundations of modern working practice, that has saved countless lives and made work safer and healthier for eveyone.
     
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  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Well-Known Member

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    And has nothing to do with the EU...........................
     
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  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Well this post has totally confused the OP. Care to explain what European legislation is relevant and what guidance is given by DOG?
     
  11. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    Basically NO EU legislation is relevant, which is the point I'm trying to make, BUT for 30 odd years insurance companies and similar bodies have HIDDEN BEHIND irrelevant and more to the point non existent rulings that can easily be blamed on Europe, suddenly they won't be able to, so have to find something else to hide behind, so as some sort of trial run there's been some sort of 'change' to boiler inspection rulings, so far on here no-ones come up with anything solid as to what these changes are so that is all that I'm suggesting, I've got no problem with existing rulings or the HSE or having boiler inspections, I'm just suggesting that maybe we are being checked out as to what we may be prepared to stand for. Just seeing if, as a movement we are as gullible as they think we could be. WRT Duke of Gloucester, if you're not old enough to remember I'm sure that it is documented somewhere.
     
  12. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member Account Suspended

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    Duke of Gloucester's restoration was completed five years before I was born... so I'm keen to learn what happened to it!
     
  13. W.Williams

    W.Williams Member

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    Wait, so, you are saying this is empty speculation on your part? That there is some fabricated reason, that may be distantly related to the EU?

    Could it not be that an Engineer, or group of Engineers have perhaps taken this decision out of evidence and reason, and not some baseless political innuendo?
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Duke of Gloucester was completed five years after I was born and I'm still keen to learn what happened to it!
     
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  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    We have some very knowledgeable people on here yet no one has come up with what these new rules are or even might be. I'm starting to suspect that a mistake has been made but who by and what it is, I don't know.
     
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  16. 30854

    30854 Active Member

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    Could we please avoid any descent into less than enlightening presumption and suppositon regarding the origin of relevant legislation?

    Whatever the future holds, safety legislation will exist and we have a thread infinitely better suited to unproductive exposition of personal viewpoints relating to the pros and cons of the ongoing wider political debate.
     
  17. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn New Member

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    Actually, the relevant bit of legislation is the Pressure Equipment Directive, which most definitely is EU legislation.
    Most of the practical outworking has just been to point people back to all the usual standards (stuff like BS931 etc), however there are some special extra bits of EU silliness that got thrown in along the way (e.g. new boilers much now be supplied with instructions for the end user).

    That said, as far as I know nothing in this has changed even slightly.

    If I was a gambling man (I've no knowledge of this particular situation), I'd hazard a guess that what has happened here is a difference of option about something between the boiler inspector, the insurance company or the vehicle acceptance body (VAB). I've been in the middle of this particular situation once(the boiler inspector said everything was fine, the VAB man had other ideas), and getting a resolution can be interesting to say the least.
     
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  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Your last para would be most likely except that we are not talking about a loco destined to go main line. Or is it!? Has the overhaul been done with Wareham in mind? As you say, different rules can apply.
    With regard to the comments about EU legislation I'd discounted the PER/PED as we were not talking about a new boiler and the PSSR is firmly rooted in UK legislation with no hint of EU legislation being involved.
     
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  19. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    I note that the procedures for testing a steam locomotive boiler in the 1950 edition of the Red Book and the ORR's RSP6 The Management of Steam Locomotive Boilers (2007) are pretty well the same.
    Where does Europe come into the equation?
     
  20. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    And what is so silly about providing instructions for the end user on how to operate what is potentially a dangerous bit of kit properly. Would you be happy having a new central heating boiler installed but nothing to refer to to tell you how it worked?

    Granted a new steam locomotive boiler is extremely unlikely to end up in the hands of an organisation that doesn't know how to operate it, but in legislative terms far better to go for a keep it simple / blanket approch rather then trying to list all possible situations where instructions are necessary - because you can bet that someone, somewhere would find a loophole they could exploit.
     
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