New build rolling stock?

Due to the higher speeds involved on the main line, there is a ban on using wooden framed coaches as they would just disintergrate in a crash. As heritage railways only run at 25mph, they are allowed to use the weaker pre 1948 wooden frame coaches.

People are suggesting new build for the main line as they could be built to externally resemble pre 1948 coaches, but internally could be built to modern standards with steel frames to better withstand a crash.

I can't ever see these new builds happening though. They are too many rules and regulations for new build rolling stock, so it would be very difficult and expensive to achieve. Also there was news recently that the ban on wooden framed coaches on the main line may be relaxed.

 

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that wooden underframed and steel underframed passenger vehicles may not be mixed in a formation on heritage lines and that no vehicle which has an underframe which is older than the BR Mk1 design is permitted on the mainline. There are other regulations concerning main line use too and all 'grandfather rights' have been withdrawn.

As far as new-builds are concerned, the NG people are doing it, so I don't see why it cannot be done for standard gauge lines. Further to this disabled access to a train is not the same as disabled access to each and every coach. Most guards vans have double doors so that large items could be loaded (and many other passenger rated vehicles had them too) and these could be used for access to a brake third vehicle. I would imagine that a compromise would have to be reached on the design of the guards compartment and the access door from that compartment to the passenger accommodation, but that could be accepted.

New builds on NG lines show that they are made of extruded steel rectangular tubes welded together. Very strong! The body 'plating' is then made of wood or steel as appropriate. I don't see that standard gauge new builds would work on the mainline, but I can't see any reason, technically, why they can't be done for the heritage standard gauge lines. The barriers seem to be the mindset and finance.

Regards

 

I think if you did a survey across the UK heritage railways you woud find almost no examples of wooden underframed coaches in regular service, although there may be some at locations such as Quainton that are used occasionally and probably at lower speeds than 25mph. I can't think of any off the top of my head, apart from the Bluebell's GNR saloon perhaps. I think all of the IoWSR's 4W coaches are mounted on PMV chassis, for example. It also isn't ccorrect to say that underframe older than a Mk 1 is banned from the Network - if that were the case none of the VSOE or "Queen of Scots" vehicles would be running, and as we have seen, there are moves afoot to relax existing rules that may well see some interesting vehicles added to the mainline lists.

It is not really valid to say that if new vehicles can be built for ng lines then it is quite feasible to apply the same technology to sg vehicles as crashworthiness requirements will be far more demanding. Any new build coaches would a very expensive design exercise, with costs spread over a relatively small number of coaches (and as a general observation) the smaller the production run, the higher the unit cost becomes.

It would be better to see some investment in current fleets to refurbish them and keep them in good order, to make a big investment in new rolling stock one would have to have the confidence that main line steam would be able to continue for a good many years to come, and I for one think that would be a very brave assumption to make.

 

My thanks for pointing the use of pre BR Mk1 Pullman stock on the mainline, I'd forgotten about that. I agree that new build rolling stock would be expensive, prohibitively so, if it were to go on the mainline, but I was thinking purely of heritage, light railway, use.

I'm sure that as long as mainline excursions are profitable the existing mainline stock would be maintained, but Network Rail's policies re steam excursions might just end up pricing them off the mainline. Gossip has it that non of the loco owners are currently making money including the owners of 'Tornado'.

Regards

 

I think it has been a very long time since owners of mainline engines have made money from running them, if indeed they ever did. I suggest that they've always had to subsidise their engines through souvenir sales, appeals when overhauls come round, or in some cases by borrowing against future income to complete an overhaul. That latter approach must be the riskiest of all.

There are more than enough coaches in preservation to satisfy the needs of heritage railways, what is needed is to get the unrestored ones up and running. I would suggest that is generally a far more attractive concept to enthusiasts than new builds, although I would say that there is a need for a new chassis design to provide underframes for the 4/6W coach bodies that continue to be rescued. In addition, the cottage industry that now provides various items for coaches currently in use will have to expand the range of items it supports if the current fleet is to reamin in use, and we'll probably reach a point where it would be possible to go out and buy a kit of parts to build a new Mk 1 if that takes your fancy.

 

I'm going to ruffle some feathers here now and suggest either an AA8 or AA24 toad, they were the Centre cabined, cut down vans for the Pontnewynydd branch.

 

Old wagon bases are a good starting point.....

There are ( at least from the early years of railways) modern replicas of coaches from that time. Some are at the age where they may be considered historic in their own right!

8 Replica of Liverpool & Manchester 2nd Class Open built 1969

Replica Liverpool & Manchester 2nd coach built 1930

Regards
Duncan

 

Not just gossip I'm afraid and actually far worse than that loco owners in almost all cases have a huge unquantified subsidy in volunteer input in addition to injecting cash.
It is not at all clear where sufficient of these volunteers will come from in future years with the necessary appropriate drive, skills and dedication to the task.

 

Dont kid yourself, I know one that has a net worth of £1.1mn ... thats assets - liabilities... that same company has a depreciation of an asset at £100k per year, but increased it's company value by £200k...but it didn't issue shares and bought no new assets.. you can assume volunteer labour but there would be maintenance to pay.

There are several groups which are running steam with a business acumen... (nothing wrong in that.. in fact they ALL should be run like that)...
Steam exists because of volunteers, but it does make a profit.. or (more appropriately)..pays it's own way + pays for additional restorations.

I dont doubt some are less well managed and are struggling.. but thats because of how they operate not because of cost.
companies house is your friend if you want to do some research.

Coming back to topic.. a rake of coaches will probably set you back around £10-20k per use..if you go with a median £15k..for 12 coaches.. £1250 per vehicle day x 30 trips a year gives a carriage income of lets say £37,500 before maintenance and annual costs, over 30 years thats £1.125mn at todays rates.

Is it viable to build a new coach to an old design but to modern standards and acceptance criteria in sufficient quantities to get the cost per vehicle to approx half the above total, say £600k per vehicle ?.. if so then maybe the scheme is in with a chance, assuming there was no interest bearing funding...., if there's a loan on the vehicle then assume £350k per vehicle.

How much does it cost to buy, restore and put a Mark 1 on the mainline, fully overhauled to a standard sufficient to keep it on the mainline for many years.. £100k perhaps ?

from a business perspective... how much more profitable would it be to do a carriage rebuild scheme, versus say building a house for £600k cash, renting it for 30 years and seeing what its worth then ?
from a commerce perspective... a house is less risker than a heritage railway carriage as lending criteria.

 

Sorry ADB968008 but I don't understand your post.

Regards

 

Phew! I wasn't the only one, then.

 

I'll try again...

Some steam groups are turning a profit. (or increasing their wealth)... Ok nothing very big... But they are paying their way and able to support further restorations.?. Talk of them all losing money Is baloney.. As is the pretence everyone is doing it for fun... There are commercial interests at play.

If you want to build new coaches, and pay their way you either need a ton of interest free cash.. Probably £15mn of it at least... Or never expect them to make any money for maintenance.

 

Having a valuable asset in the form of a loco is one thing fairly easily shown with a flattering theoretical value on a balance sheet.

Earning enough £££s year after year to keep it in tip top order at each successive overhaul is quite another and one which does not necessarily show in a single years accounts until cruch time arrives when major component replacement becomes necessary. There are very very few cases indeed where true commercial interests wholly prevail with steam locomotives and loads which are very reliant on volunteer support in both practical and financial terms. Without such support most heritage railway operations would be much scaled down as would the mainline scene.

 

I agree... My original post pointed out one example of the assets owned depreciating by £100k year on year since the corresponding year the engine was overhauled, whilst at the same time the company's value (not turnover or shareholder funds) was increasing £200k year on year... Sure someone may be giving them £200k a year, but unless it was cash to the bank, it would show up as an asset... But companies house shows they have a low cash balance, as the money made is being reinvested.. Presumably to other locomotives.

That would suggest they are doing something right...

I'm not going to be drawn on naming the group or the loco.. Other than to say its all open and on the books in companies house online...

So don't believe every locomotive owner is a pauper losing out?.some are doing well at a rate of at least £2 made on every £1 spent... + volunteers.