New-build steam strategy coordination?

Interesting you should mention glassfibre replica locos. I've long wondered whether I could spring 35029 'Ellerman Lines' out of York and replace it with a GRP replica...

Personally, I think main line steam could yet stand a lot of expansion. I live on the edge of a designated AONB yet we get about one steamer a decade down here. It's all manageable from London distance-wise too.

However, I think that many in the world of preserved lines would take issue with your claim that steam can only be profitable on the main line - and some in the main line scene can tell you it's not always profitable by any means!

 

Yes, but we're the CME of a major railway company post-war looking to prolong the life of steam by incorporating some unorthodox scenarios, which may or may not work out

To have a two cabbed loco with excellent forward visibility regardless of which way it was going; think of two conjoined jinties or austerities. From my limited footplate experience, I seem to remember that the rear-view from a tank engine is usually better than forwards and you don't need to worry about drifting smoke and smuts either, though at the end of the day it's only a thought exercise

 

I'm sure we should have a go: at least for a value of "makes sense" that might incorporate the Leader... (not a high bar I'm setting here)
Now my understanding is that problems with managing steam engines on the road include the challenge of getting a big increase in steaming rate when you need it, and also in hand firing a large firebox.
Supposing we have a dual boiler setup where boiler A is coal fired, and well in the reach of hand firing: say std 1 or Black 5 sized, maybe a bit smaller. Grate area etc is sized so that for normal running its at peak efficiency. Boiler B is in the front, a bit smaller, and its *oil fired*. Most of the time its just simmering away, just on the boil, and we use it as a water prefeed for boiler A. Now we're approaching the Devon banks or the Lickey or something and we need a massive increase in steam generation. So fireman pulls the levers and gets boiler B really boiling hard, and then as we reach the bottom driver pulls another lever and we feed the cylinders flat out from both boilers...



And here we are from the GWR kit of parts... The firebox on boiler B looked a bit stark, so I gave it some CBC style streamlining... Now I admit there might be a few teething problems. Cleaning the ash out of the smokebox might be a bit of a challenge for example, and I'm not quite sure where the inside cylinders are, but I'm sure if its given to the shedmaster at OOC he could manage... You must admit though, it looks at least as practical as some of the early Broad gauge locos, and almost as pretty as a Kruger... On second thoughts maybe there should be a second tender on the front for the oil fuel.

 

Knowing that I'd never live to see an actual working Thompson Pacific, I'd settle for a non working static replica just to line it up with the real working ECML Pacifics we do have for comparison's sake...

This one, in this form, just because I actually like it...



I reckon 4470 in her original form isn't as ugly as people make out - this angle is not a good one for sure, but to me she has a sleekness of line because of the length of the boiler/smokebox arrangement, and (again to me) looks quite utilitarian and tidy. Somewhere between the Chapelon outline of cylinder/bogie arrangement yet not looking cluttered as some continental locos look. In her blue livery, I reckon a replica would look very handsome actually.

 

And besides which the precedents are not good. The Dean Single's tender was scrapped, and the future of the Milton Keynes Bloomer is uncertain.

 

Somewhere up there, OS Nock just said a very rude word.

 

And being O.S. Nock, he will then go on saying the same very rude word, in subtly different but recognisably similar ways, with ever-increasing frequency over the next fifty years.

He'll also probably be publishing accurate, but selective, performance logs for Heaven, that - while objectively true - don't take into account the operational restrictions under which the angels are working ...

Tom

 

Given how angry he got about the livery in which Thompson painted 'Great Northern', I always thought that david & Charles must have been having a sly dig at Nock when they put out the omnibus edition of "The Gresley Pacifics" with a dark blue cover.

 

Well put! And it's prettier than a Leader.

But I'm wondering about the second chimney and getting appropriate amounts of draught for both boilers. When you're ready to start building up steam pressure in the second boiler, you can presumably use a blower. But when you start using the steam from that boiler you need to send some of the exhaust through the second blast pipe and chimney. How do you then maintain the right amount of draught for the main boiler? You might need a variable nozzle on the main boiler and/or automatic adjustment of ashpan dampers.

 

Ah, no worries, I've come up with the brilliant concept, I'll leave the detailed de snagging to my staff.

In case folk are wondering where the steam pipes are, the inlet pipes to the cylinder run through extra large flue tubes in the top of boiler B to provide a bit of extra superheat, and the exhaust pipes run through the bottom of the waterspace to provide some more heat recovery.

 

Why would you want a sectioned Ellerman Lines, how may Merchant Navies do we need. The new build mania is getting a bit out of hand now. What has happened to the group building the second P2? This along with the Clan are among the daftest new build projects, I want to see a new P2 and have put my money where most of those with any sense would, with the group who have been successful in building a new locomotive.

 

Ahh, the livery debate goes back a lot further than we thought!

 

Mostly scrapped. The wheelsets and a few fittings live on to run another day.

Tom

 

Well, the Clan is one of only 2 missing BR Standards either already extant or under way, with plans for the last missing one - the 77XXX - in the pipeline for the future. Daft? Not according to their supporters. In fact, if not in use on the main line, a Clan would do very well on the likes of the NYMR or WSR, I think. Perhaps all the much maligned Clans needed was fine tuning, a la Duke of Gloucester. In any case, if folk wish to pursue their dreams, who is to stop them? As for the 'other' P2, again, it's that group's money. Not my thing, but it obviously appeals to some. Good luck to them.

 

No project is (more than, perhaps, slightly) daft in the opinion of those participating. Most, if not all, projects are very daft in someone else's opinion. But I for one would not put the Doncaster P2 and the Clan in anything like the same category.

The original Clan was arguably an unnecessary design (There can't have been much of a need for more Class 6 locos and, if a few were needed, did they really need to have wide fireboxes, therefore trailing wheels, therefore less weight for adhesion? At least the Class 5 Pacific included in the original plan was dropped.) But the new Clan, with design improvements courtesy of the Advanced Steam Traction Trust, should be the equivalent of a Class 7, while a good bit lighter than a Britannia, so a useful locomotive for both NR and preserved lines.

The P2 project is moving slowly and the end result, if it ever gets there, will look pretty much like the A4s that we already have.

 

Great Northern - why the hell did Thompson fit it with a B1 cab?!

P2 no.2001 - they beat Darlington to getting the frames built, the loco's identity could be called iconic (the name is certainly more resonant than "Prince of Wales - if Darlington had to name it after Charles, couldn't they have used his subsidiary title, "Duke of Rothesay"?), and I'd like to see a rebuilt P2 running too. Hell, I'd like to see both P2s running. We've got two B17 new builds going too, and I don't see people complaining about that... nor about there being three "new" GWR 4-6-0s that only Swindon aficionados can tell apart!

Because, if I had quite a few million to spend, I'd want to establish a tour operator catering to tourist destinations around the south of England, running every day throughout the season, two (or even more) workings a day to each destination, based on the success of the Jacobite... and I like Merchant Navies... so I'd acquire every MN I could, restore them to original pre-rebuild condition, and run them near continuously. There'd be business for some of them in the pre-Christmas season too. It's no use trying to run services on busy main lines with locos like Black Fives. Heck, even 7P locos have got stuck - look at Tangmere in South Devon recently. In order to operate profitably, we're going to need more 8Ps and keep the less powerful stuff for heritage railways and less demanding secondary main line operations. So, in the event of my acquiring the funds necessary (ha!) my fleet would consist of 35009, 35010, 35011, 35022, 35025 and 35029. At any given time, two would be fully operational, at least one on standby, perhaps one out on hire, and two under overhaul...

Well, that's certainly in line with Swindon tradition!

...runs and hides...

 

You are aware that the only way to make a small fortune from railways is to start with a large one first, aren't you?

 

Yep. OS Nock was certainly an ungrateful so and so. He was given a free pass by Thompson for obtaining many of his wartime logs, was given quite a lot of airtime by Thompson, actually was asked and then hired by Thompson to write the official 1947 LNER handbook on their locomotives, for which he himself described Thompson's standardisation programme as "outstanding". Yes, OS Nock is an enigma in himself. His writing on Thompson over a fifty year period fascinates me because it changes relative to the popular views shown elsewhere by other individuals and groups.

I admit to having mixed feelings about the P2s. Of course, I'm a founder member for the P2 Trust and hence I am very happy with the developments I am seeing there.

However my gut feeling is that a Walschaerts valve gear P2 would have bee quicker to get on the mainline than a Lentz gear one: it'll be simpler to build, quicker to build and have a larger degree of commonality of parts and driver knowledge with Tornado's setup as they'd be virtually the same locomotive, control wise, just with a different number of driving wheels.

That's obviously not down to me and I support the P2 trust's intentions - and if they can get the Lentz gear to work, great - more proof, were it needed, that there are no problems, only solutions.

The Doncaster P2 Trust I don't know enough about and so wouldn't like to make a judgment, however their Facebook page shows they are working on their frames too. Whether or not they succeed is down to them and they have managed to get some celebrity support (Brian Blessed). I would say the Bugatti nose is not a fair comparison to the A4 - when you look at the two classes side by side, there's many more differences (and the P2s are, after all, longer).

I don't think it's fair to necessarily pick out new build groups for criticism where clear progress, however small, is being made.

There are some of course for which there is no help because they won't help themselves (L1 group - still quite cross that the Thompson tank is associated with this as, were a serious group to come together to actually build one, it would be forever besmirched by the total non entities putting out that they wanted to build a Thompson L1).