New builds - how many will ever really work?

There have been a couple (Bodiam and Fenchurch, IIRC) of Terrier boilers constructed from scratch in the UK in the past 15 years, along with an ever increasing number of not insubstantial narrow gauge boilers (David Lloyd George, Taliesin, Blanche, Lyd - even Lilla's boiler in house at Boston Lodge, just to name a few of the Ffestiniog's replacements) so the skillset of building entire new boilers is there, all it needs is upscaling a bit...

John

 

Not Fenchurch, it was one (or both) of the IoW terriers I believe. But the general point is well made - didn't Calbourne also have a substantially new boiler, or am I imagining that?

On the more general point: the issue I see is that many preserved railways are running so hard just to stand still when it comes to repairs. Long term it makes sense to make new in terms of better overall reliability. But the problem is that that requires a large up front injection of cash and /or labour, with a relatively long payback period, that most lines can't afford - they are too busy patching up the old stuff to try and keep a service running! So while many of the new builds currently being built for heritage line (as opposed to mainline) use will become significantly useful locomotives to their hosts, it is difficult for those hosts to offer a large amount of actual, cashable support until quite late in the new build process.

To take one example with which I am familiar: the Bluebell (in terms of the PLC) has been able to offer the Atlantic some otherwise unused space to erect a shed (paid for 80:20 by the Bluebell Trust and the Atlantic project); access to the Bluebell Trust as a way of simplifying fund-raising and access to the PLC workshop to carry out machining etc. All of which are very helpful donations in kind but relatively cheap in terms of cash cost to the PLC (for example, the land was otherwise unused; the Trust charitable status already exists; the machine tools may otherwise have been laying unused). I am not aware that significant PLC resources (cash or staff time) have been directed at progressing construction, even though when built it will be a useful and hopefully reliable loco. No doubt when completion gets near, she will move into the main workshop for finishing and at that point I'd imagine Bluebell PLC resources will be employed; but I can't see it happening until the finishing line is well in sight.

I'd imagine similar constraints apply elsewhere. You'd have to be really confident that you were well ahead of your own maintenance schedule before you started offering to help out in a significant financial way on a loco that, while useful, may still be 10 - 15 years away from completion.

Tom (my personal opinion, not official Bluebell doctrine...)

 

Perhaps £400k is overestimating the cost of a new boiler for anything but the very largest of locos like Tornado?

I wonder how much the ones built for narrow gauge locomotives, even with the cost adjusted to match inflation where it was over 5 years ago, came to? And the Terrier ones?

Or perhaps I'm just being hilariously over-optimistic and revealing my lack of engineering knowledge!?

 

I was refering to Scotsman's boiler/ firebox job, not the rest of it.

 

Anyone fancy a replica of GNR 1470 "Great Northern"?

 

Depends what colour it is !

Bob.

 

either GNR livery or very Early LNER.

 

:smash: I don't think he was being serious

 

Neither was i, i mearly wanted to see how many soapboxes got pulled to the front ;-)

 

There is something of an argument for building locomotives which share components with that which went before.

In that respect, the one thing about all the GWR new builds is that they do use authentic GWR components which already exist to do pretty much what Swindon did - standard parts made up into different locomotive classes, so they are already doing this in essence.

Roller bearings would seem to me to be the most logical development for new build locomotives - okay, not authentic for, say, building a new Thompson Pacific, but the economic practicalities of roller bearings would be accepted.

[soapbox]

I doubt if I put my hand up and said "I want a new build Thompson Pacific", I'd not get support so much as shots fired at me tin hat! :laser::tape2:

[/soapbox]

But there is definitely merit in the idea that new builds should try to make the most of toolings and existing locomotives for measuring up. Example - for Tornado, the A1 Trust inspected and measured up parts of Blue Peter's valve gear.

 

Yes both of the IWSR terriers have had new boilers built by I. Newton & Son. W8 has had hers for some years and W11 will be fitted during the current overhaul. Calbourne had substantial boiler work but whether you would call that a substantially new boiler I would not like to guess! More info would be on The Isle of Wight Steam Railway - home

 

It seems that labour cost is a huge component in getting new boilers constructed. Is it realistic to think the volunteer side of heritage railways could be trained to do this work properly? Also, as I understand it there is a big issue re who takes overall design responsibility for a boiler,which may make it possible to do such a project in smaller steps, e.g. barrel, firebox sides, tubeplate etc. For the bigger locos is there a viable alternative to going to Germany?

 

Building new boilers is not rocket science and went on with heritage railways before Tornado, albeit the sizes were somewhat smaller. The Terrier boilers have already been mentioned. At Middleton, we have had three new boilers in the last 13 years, two from Israel Newton. The only thing preventing Newton's from building larger boilers was their space and lifting capacity, other wise I'm sure that they would have taken bigger jobs on. Prices for the smaller boilers are nothing like the £400K being mentioned. Middleton's three cost between £35K & £45K, the last in 2006.

 

Just how much does overcoming limitations as to space and lifting capacity have to cost? Can somebody enlighten us?

 

from what i remember of newtons works, you;d probably have to either build a whopping big extension or move to a new building. Didnt they sell out a while ago to someone based down in the peak district?

 

They already do to a large extent. For example, Bluebell's boiler had substantial work (new firebox sides, re-staying as well as the usual re-tubing) done by a volunteer team. There are lots of other examples.

Constructing a new boiler to an existing design from a kit of parts is well within the compass of many preserved railways. The big issue that would stop an entirely new boiler being made at most heritage lines is the ability to make the 'kit"; e.g. to press out the complicated shapes for firebox throat plate; firebox; to roll a barrel (especially a taper barrel) etc. Because of the size of components and specialist tools needed, this is only really feasible at a small number of locations, and therefore is likely to be done professionally if for no other reason than it is the line of business of those small number of locations!

It's kind of the same argument to making a set of frames for a new build. There are several locations where volunteers have shown they are perfectly capable of erecting a set of frames given the sides, stretchers etc. But those sides will inevitably be cut professionally (not by volunteers) simply because the size makes it unfeasible to handle in most heritage line workshops. Once cut to size it's well within the skills of volunteers to erect them into a complete set of frames, as has been shown by Beachy Head, 82045, etc.

Tom

 

I can see no reason why heritage railways couldnt assemble whole new engines, from a kit of parts, isnt that what you do at major overhauls anyway? so its just that you are assemblying all new parts, where it gets hard is when complex shapes are needed to be constructed take boilers for example, i would agree that pressings are the work of specialists, but the assembly i an sure is with in most engineering workshops skill base, hot rivetting is commonplace, as is welding, as long as the welder is coded it should meet the regulations for presure vessels and the insurance company, we had this discussion about 4353,and how to approach this area, there is in theory nothing to stop us getting in the boiler inspector, have him tell us what needs to be done getting a kit of parts having our own people, who do boiler work do the work in house rather than spending a vast sum to have it done else where

 

It isn't entirely necessary to form the more complex boiler plates with pressings. Over the years, quite a few pieces and patch pieces have been made at Bridgnorth and elsewhere with little more than a form tool, lots of heat and a number of strong arms to swing the hammers. - Not a trivial task, but doable. No different to what the 3 1/2" and 5" gauge boys do but bigger, heavier and hotter.

 

Do they never learn? ......... First set up a facebook page ...... then chose a livery .........

From the V3 Locomotive Group Facebook page

:frusty: