New built replicas.

A P2 would be awesome for sure. There is scope to make improvements on the original design - the following site has some interesting reading

http://www.lner.info/locos/P/p2.shtml

 

Tornado was conceived as a a next-in-class. If the same engineers were to be involved, would they apply the same principle? If so, we'd get a 2-8-2 with A4 style streamlining, I assume.

 

would the P2 be able to cope with the track? i seem to remember theyre long wheelbase was a cause for concern in LNER days, disliking points in yards.

 

I agree with the above comment, a Mikado with a long fixed wheelbase might not be exactly welcome on NR now.

Turning to whether one is building the "next-in-class" or a replica engine with modern improvements, let me quote from an article about 82045 from the latest SVR News:

"We make regular progress reports to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR ) who are overseeing the project to ensure that all aspects of materials and engineering conform to correct specifications."

And: "The ORR are keen that we adhere as closely as possible to the original design specification for the 82XXX class, which is-fortunately-precisely in line with our own plans".

And: ...we are more than happy to stay within ORR guidelines, making accreditation much simpler..."

46118

 

Next-in-class or replica with modern improvements - aren't they the same thing these days?. Yes, P2 2003 was certainly a significant change on 2002, but there's no reason to think that any new-build 2007 would include any radical departures.
As for the long wheelbase issue. Even if the engineers of 60163 haven't already got an idea of which coaling/stabling yards could handle a P2 wheelbase, it wouldn't take them long to collect the data, given all the Tornado touring that goes on. If route availability really were badly compromised by this, the thing probably wouldn't get built. Experimenting with pivoting joints on the driving rod etc. would be expensive and might easily turn out to be a blind alley.

 

The reasoning behind the 2-8-2s was the need to work trains of 500 tons plus on the difficult Edinburgh-Aberdeen line, where some trains were beyond the capacity of a Gresley pacific to work unaided.
In "British Steam Locomotives At Work" O.S. Nock describes runs on that line with "Earl Marischal" and appears impressed with the immense power available to the driver. He also notes that when the Mikados were subsequently rebuilt as Pacifics one reason given was their unsuitability in original form for the curving stretches of the Aberdeen road. Nock states that his footplate experiences with the Mikados was that they took the curves very well indeed, and hints that the "wheelbase" comment was one of convenience to justify what were by all accounts quite ugly rebuilds.

I guess one thing is for certain, if the A1 people do embark on a 2-8-2, they will do that in the knowledge that few if indeed any Heritage lines would be capable of hosting the locomotive.

Far be it for me to suggest an extinct LNER type for their next project, but two classes in the frame would surely be mixed-traffic types like a V4 2-6-2, and the K3 2-6-0?

46118

 

Much as I'd like to see a P2, I have to agree with you. But a 'Bantam Cock' ! Yesss!

 

Much as I'd like to see these, esp. the V4, they're not really an economical proposition for the mainline. Not enough bums on seats, or ability to operate at mainline speeds. Would be restricted to Mallaig type jobs only. Unfortunately it's all about the money if you're going to survive. A P2 with a properly designed truck with the right side control springing would overcome some of the problems of the originals too, as per the mods to the V2's IIRC?. (These are purely my personal thoughts b-t-w)

 

how about oliver bulleid 's 36000 leader class

 

I think you might find Health & Safety might rule that one out! (crew working conditions).

 

Sheff, I take your point about the need for mainline running, I guess in a commercial world to earn the money!

I suppose looking at the North Eastern, the "V" and "Z" Atlantics were used to both heavy trains and fast running, and an "Atlantic" back in line service would be something special.

The A1 people will I am sure look at the "business case" for any future build, just as they would have done for "Tornado". Certainly has caught the public imagination, and I can only recall again last Autumn on the SVR, and seeing a completely full platform at Bridgnorth awaiting the arrival of said engine. Mainly the "general public" as well. Credit where credit is due, but I suppose Tornado has to be a success and an "earner", both to pay off borrowings and have cash in the bank for overhauls.

An interesting thought, which perhaps we should not go down here, is whether Tornado will retain its popularity when 60103 reappears....

 

:lol: Talk about lighting the blue paper and running! It's a good question, but for a 4472 thread.

 

And indeed a question that appears likely to be somewhat academic for the time being.....


..coat and rail replacement bus for 46118....

 

10000

My own choice would be Gresley's Hush Hush 10000:
Some good video footage here - http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=21942

Just imagine seeing that brute flying down the ECML or the GWR :clap2:

Regarding the question of whetherTornado's popularity will withstand the return of Flying Scotsman, I suspect Tornado will win hands down. It has grabbed a new audience which will not easily be seduced by "just another" loco restoration. Present company excepted!!!!

 

10000 never really rushed anywhere after its first couple of years because it turned out to be only a moderately good steamer. After they got rid of the high-pressure boiler and put in an A4 clone, it came to be preferred on heavy rather than fast trains.
Still an interesting candidate,though, for making an upgraded replica with the benefit of lessons learned and modern materials / building techniques.

 

I dont see how 4472 will make Tornado less well known or less a celebrity, they will both be capable of selling out trains on a regular basis. I really cant see a problem, and if a tour operator can secure both for a Torbay or SSE type service they should be onto a winner.

With regards to the next A1ST project, as nice as a P2 might be i fear for its practicality.

Chris

 

Give the likely astronomical cost of the HP water-tube boiler, I think the only way this could happen would be to dress-up a conventional shell boiler to look like 10000 externally, and that would be difficult given the stepped profile of the original. I can't see the money or the market being there, much as I'd like to have a crack at it.

 

Just in the same way that Tornado is not an exact replica - some modern modifications were made based on better engineering understanding and current standards - reproduciing Hush Hush would have similar variations. Some of the more complex matters of the early 20th century may be easier to accomplish in the 21st. What a project if it did take off...

 

The Tornado people won't build another one unless there's a business case, and building another one (let's call it Harrier) might make Tornado less special and therefore they'd be degrading their own main product. I think they're more likely in the short term to build another boiler so that overhauls of Tornado can be completed faster.

 

With an all welded boiler from Germany it has been suggested they will need to repair by replacement anyway, when the time comes.