North Wales Transit

a few thoughts?

Just a few questions and hopefully constructive comments....

-first although you say electric is the future way ahead electric is only as green as the source generating the power. The onboard system would would work but I'd suggest something like a small combined heat and power plant on woodchips to provide electric to motors and heat extrated for heating the rest of the carriages.
-overhead line equipment is a definate no on FR gauge. Given the very limited clearance with existing FR stock it would be a serious hazard if electric power was operating near a metal steam or diesel engine! Remember there's HMRI to satisfy as well to allow the operation. On the welsh Highland although it could be argued there would be space I can't see locals or the National trust liking the idea of overhead equipment in the aberglaslyn pass for example
-surely a simpler approach would be to petition the rebuild of the bangor-caernarfon section, source a few powerful diesels to run on the FR/WHR and convert them to biofuel to run off peak services with existing carriage stock. This would be cheaper and satisfy the eco side and potentially could be run relatively cheaply.

anyway thats a few of my thoughts.

Regards

Duncan

 

Hi Duncan, Firstly, in the next few years the situation regarding fuel and transport is going to go through the biggest revolution that we have ever known. The price of petrol or diesel will be so high the ordinary person will not be able to afford it, even if it does still exist. Coal and gas will become marginalised plus very expensive, as for wood we can all imangine how impractical the treatment of this product in a mass scale would be. As for the production of Colsa, i imangine it's principle usage will be for agriculture and larger forms of transport such as lorries but even that will have an exorbitant price. So, it's down to good old electricity to come and save us, that's why there won't be any steam or diesel locomotives running, they will be completely and totally too expensive to run. I know all this sounds grim but it really is right on our doorstep as time stands. We need other alternatives and this is where projects like the NWT come in, not only in Snowdonia but everywhere, fast !!

 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

I should of clarified they would run on something similar to the wood pellets used in the few carbon zero homes already built.

Link to sort of system is below.

http://www.chpa.co.uk/about_chp/chp_faq.shtml

These pellets could easiliy be deliverered by lorry and the units or new build diesel type equivalent could be filled up each morning

Electric if powered conventially is at best 40% efficient unless what was proposed originally is adopted (hydroelectric scheme) An interesting article a while back discussed efficiency of traction and the diesel hydraulics were found to be the best overall.

Given the amount of vegetation clearance happening soon that would be a start to the supply of wood. Looking to the future it might seem impractical now for wood but problems can be overcome and costs will balance as fossil fuels become harder to extract.

The energy future from what I've studied is heading towards a decentralised system producing power locally for local needs.

Regards

Duncan

 

I'm really surprised you alternative energy guys have seemingly discarded the horse as a means of transport. Relatively low maintenance and the "exhaust" can be used to promote growth of equine fuel, i.e. grass. Plus there would be no expensive electrification to install.

 

Hi,

One aspect I didn't think of#-o. Gravity train as well....I'll get my coat.

Suggestions I was giving was a combination from the energy and environment side of the degree I'm on and trying to see a way this idea being put forward by Mr R could possibly work. I'm still more of the opinion, as others mentioned before, that the best offpeak service would be a diesel (or something similar powered by some form of fuel diesel, biofuel, fuel pellet, hydrogen, air, biogas, nuclear) and carriage set up as the more viable option.

Regards

Duncan

 

Dont be too hasty there...

Coal will be with us for a few hundred years... and whilst the UK may have passed peak oil.. the whole of the south atlantic has yet to be explored.. they know it's there.. and there's probably more of it than in the middle east...yes it may go up in price.. but I dont see $200 a barrel oil for a good few years yet... and by then we'll be much more environmentally friendly and using less of it anyway... it'll out last the trams at the very minimum.

 

The required increase in oil prices to make electric (and hydrogen) cars take off is likely to be way less than that required to make this 'NWT' idea financially plausible.

In fact, in twenty or thirty years im sure it would be cheaper to buy each potential user an electric car than spend tens of millions on a pointless and impractical electricification. Bangor - Caernarfon is different and would be useful right now to help relieve congestion, but anything other than a standard gauge branch would be madness if the money was made available..

Chris

 

Lot of facts in there !! We don't have time to wait for a good few years, we have to start being environmentally friendly right now !! At $150, the barrel was already on it's way to $200 until the financial crisis came in obliging them to bring the price down, which is sure to go back straight up when things calm down. The idea is to have the cleanest fuel possible, you can forget about coal altogether. As for the trams, i'm afraid you only have to look around you, they are sprouting up everywhere, time to start looking towards the future.

 

Hi Ralph. Slight misunderstanding there !! No, we are not going to run out of oil yet, it's all about pollution and ecology i'm afraid. No need to worry, keep on driving. R

 

Give it a rest, you otiose buffoon.

 

Actually, I have just heard that due to the imminent exhaustion of fossil fuels, the NWT scheme has stepped up its progress and just placed an order with Bruce Peebles and Co. Ltd for six 630Volt 4w overhead electric tram locos. It seems this scheme is well on the way to success...!!!!!

(Yawn!)

 

Peak Oil is not scaremongering. Renovator's way of putting it across might well be, but the core idea behind it is sound.

That said, it still doesnt mean that NWT makes sense....

Chris

 

In 1957 Tulsa, Oklahoma buried a Plymouth Belvedere car in a time capsule under the city hall lawns. Intended to be dug up in 2007 for the 100th anniversary of the state, they included several cans of gas (petrol) as no one believed in 1957 that there would be oil left in 2007 to drive it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1628272520070616

They organised a huge car rally with vintage Belvedere's.. dug up the car which had rotted away in the ground (I guess no one made it water proof) but they displayed it anyway. Interestingly they also put $100 in a savings account.. which was worth $1000 when recovered !

So it's not a modern thing to worry about running out of oil !

 

I think it should be pointed out that Peak Oil is not the same as Oil Depletion - peak oil is the point of maximum production while depletion refers to a period of falling reserves and supply.

Chris

 

Why ? A narrow-gauge electric tram system would be far more flexible than a standard gauge branch in terms of avoiding the various blockages on the old formation, and would have the potential for linking up with the WHR and indeed the Llanberis Lake lines; remember IoM steam locos sometimes venture onto the Manx Electric.

Richard

 

The main blockages would cost a lot of money in whatever gauge you choose - any saving from using 2ft would be massively outweighed by the inability to run into Bangor and along the NW coast to Conwy/Chester etc; the need for a fleet of new 2ft vehicles and the depot and staff to look after them (instead of the local franchisee leasing a couple of 156's/158's); the expense of running it as a stand-alone railway; the lower operating speeds... I've always loved the idea of 'phase 5', but being realistic its much more suited to being a branch of the national network.

Chris

 

At the risk of prodding Reno with a stick and waking him up again, where are the customers coming from for this wonderful scheme? There is no work in the area - apart from the 400 jobs created by the WHR / FR - and there are therefore no commuters. The existing buses run almost empty.

Where is the business case for this scheme, without which no funding from any source will be forthcoming?

Oh, and have you asked HMRI for its thoughts on running a 600mm railway with a 1 in 40 ruling gradient, extremely sharp turns and very limited clearances in excess of 25mph?

Thought not.

 

Sounds like the most sensible option providing it would be viable to instate another service. Let's at least focus on getting the WHR operating to Port first. The extras useful or not can be thought about later on.

Regards

Duncan