North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Er... what do the 7 or so miles from Grosmont to Whitby tell you about the work of the charity? Maybe I'm dense, but as far as I can see the answer is nil, naught, diddly squat! ut, nothing will change until someone pushes the NYMR into recognising the responsibilities of being an educational charity, rather than simply quoting its "charitable objectives" as a hook to hang the fundraising begging box on.

But what Chris Price didn't mention is that the cost of fully overhauling a diesel hasn't really been found yet. D5032 hasn't been finished yet, after years of work, and it really is the first. All the nothers are on borrowed time in that respect, so if you compare the costs of a diesel to those of a steam loco they will undoubtedly be lower - until the inevitable happens.

 

I think you've slightly missed my point - or are you suggesting that when a diesel hauls the train, there are no costs associated with infrastructure, carriages, your core business costs etc?

My point is that regardless of haulage, those are the same, and constitute a major part of running a railway (or at least they should do provided you are operating on a "going concern" basis and therefore repairing your assets at the same rate they are wearing out). So the marginal savings of running a diesel as a proportion of the whole train cost are rather small, and I suspect, could easily be wiped out by a few lost ticket sales.

Tom

 

Some of it is for convenience although I'm fairly certain some of it is for necessity. At the moment they only have two Whitby locos available (5428 & 31120) as 926 has a regulator problem and D7528 a main generator problem. Getting a third is obviously a priority hence 44806 is being worked on now that the long awaited parts have arrived for the TPWS fitment. That obviously makes it unavailable so it effectively means only 5428 & 80136 are available for what should be three steam turns. The arrival of 45596 will ease the pressure for the week

 

If the £1100 to run steam a day and £400 to run a diesel for a day are correct, then on the basis of £50 per person fares, that would suggest if more than 14 people decide not to travel on a day because of diesel rather than steam haulage, then running a diesel is a bad financial move.

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The logic is circular, whether you are pro- or anti-Whitby. The charity operates to Whitby, therefore the work of the charity includes the operation of trains to Whitby. On the other hand, I completely agree with you on the importance of living, rather than just hiding behind, the full set of charitable objectives.

On NYMR, maybe, but there are plenty of other diesels that have had such extensive work - you may want to talk to the owner of 50026 about what it's cost him. However, that takes us back to the point where we are wholeheartedly in agreement with @Jamessquared, which is that the steam/diesel cost equation is much more finely balanced than a focus on hire costs and fuel would suggest.

 

It's more finely balanced than that - you need to count not just those "deciding not to travel" but also those "not deciding to travel" in response to seeing/hearing the diesel. There's a lot of focus on marketing, but it tends to emphasise those who can be counted, for example those who've turned round in the queue. It's the others who never show their faces you really need to count.

 

Sure enough here is the first Tripadvisor review from the main season. No knowing whether this was start of the week when the steam locos had unforeseen issues ,or Wednesday when the Moors chose to run diesel out of convenience. A little worrying that the drinks choice is drawing comment when the gift aid refreshment voucher has been heavily trailed.

I hate moaning about NYMR as I have enjoyed many visits over the years but for every review like this there will surely be other visitors with the same feeling

We know it’s old but far too many things didn’t work ! And not just diesel rather than steam that we bought!!! - North Yorkshire Moors Railway (nymr), Pickering Traveller Reviews - Tripadvisor

Jon

 

What happens if there is a steam failure ten minutes before departure and a diesel has to substitute? You are getting yourself into a minefield.

 

Unless things have suddenly changed the answer is no. You can by return tickets to travel between one or two stations (i.e. Pickering - Levisham or Pickering - Goathland) but not three, which would be required to do Pickering - Grosmont. To do that you have to buy the all line ticket. The whole ticketing set up is madness IMHO.

 

You could buy a one station and a two station ticket for £40, but that only allows a return trip, not a day rover.

 

Thanks Steve. There is obviously something very wrong within the management of the NYMR.
Pickerng to Grosmont all day not available. SVR all day is £33 if bought on the day.

 

Oh yes, I don't disagree. My wife and I, and our two young children, are staying a couple of miles from Levisham station the week after next. I initially thought we would spend a couple of days on the railway, but the new fare system has reduced that to one maximum. Looking at the likely steam availability I'm thinking now that it's best not to bother at all.

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With respect to Chris Price he appears from my experience to be quoting the loco hire fee plus fuel cost. Diesel hire fees are ridiculously even unviable low. They have never covered overhaul costs.

However, I once had a rule of thumb that every engine day cost the MHR about £2000 including a contribution to c&w and pway. Steam locomotive costs would have been circa £900 a day of that. If diesel costs were realistic the difference would be maybe £250/ day. In other words 1/8th of the total cost of running the train. Useful but not transformative and certainly not worth losing customers over.

 

Particularly because the price isn't a fare at all, but a "donation to view the work of the charity"

Tom

 

The £400 to run a diesel for a day at NYMR isn’t accurate based on the invoice I supplied to Park Street last year for loco use …and then there are fuel costs and potentially consumables subject to the contract ..

 

Good point. If the one day price is almost £50 and this deters just half a carriage at 0920 and 1200, that's £3000 per day in lost revenue. 21k per week times 26 creates a potential loss of £546,000.
Did the gift aid money simply replace money lost through high pricing last year?
Could this years high price lose the railway £500k?

Meanwhile this was Pickering today. No access to the station, no shop open or refreshments and an empty car park.

 

Steam is an intrinsic part of the attraction to the NYMR, putting out a diesel because at short notice (that morning) a steam locomotive failed is understandable, having a chronic lack of steam power isn't. Remember the channel 5 programme I am pretty sure it had steam in the title.

This lack of power has been a constant theme over the last few years despite the hard work of those in MPD and symptomatic of the NYMR malise. It saddens me to say this as a member since 1993.

The highlight of our summer holidays to Pickering from 2016 until 2023 were a few trips on the line. However we got fed up with lack of steam and the timetable being a struggle to operate so in 2024 we went to North Wales instead. In two weeks we travelled on 7 lines, every service that was advertised for steam haulage was. Railways had suitable locomotives in hand to cover for failures and there were lots of secondary effort/attractions to make the trips more appealing for us all.

Many of us want the NYMR to be successful but are frustrated and concerned about what we see and hear. I have a number of close friends who are long term volunteers on the line but all a considering if they can carry on with the current situation. I hope the railway can survive and then prosper but at the moment I think another year of significant losses, insufficient investment in the core railway and the frustration of volunteers will bring things to a head.

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I visited on Wednesday and it seems only 80136 and 5428 are operational from the home fleet currently. 44806 was working earlier in the week but was receiving attention in the shed on Wednesday, 926 was outside having some attention too. S160 had a tarpaulin over its smokebox.

 

I feel heritage railways, particularly the longer ones, should offer tickets at a heavily discounted price if people want to do 2/3/4 days within a short period.