North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

To late for me to be "getting fat", but rest assured, no - we all pay our own way - I did ask how much the 2015 Business Plan for Mulberries depended on a large number of NYMR Meetings for the income, but the locals also seem to be adopting Mulberries as a regular haunt, so things are looking good there at the moment, which they deserve to!

Steven

 

I do so agree with the last paragraph. Pictures of the tea rooms can seen on my blog which I am advised I should not advertise on here. The service and food is excellent.

 

Any pictures of "Sapper" on the Moors, or of 5428 in LMS livery? Thanks in advance etc.

 

There's a picture of 5428 on the NYMR volunteers Facebook page.

 

I have lots of 'Sapper' on the East Lancashire railway. They are on steammemories.blogspot.com. Hope this is helpful and does not infringe any rules.

Phil

 

Most disapointed to hear that 60007 has not been asked to re create the bit at the end of 'The Royal Train'

 

Since when is the East Lancsashire Railway 'on the Moors'? Just an excuse for advertising your site, again?

 

Steven: Do you happen to know if the water treatment issue has been resolved? I got the impression, maybe incorrectly, that a change in the mains water supply and the chemical content was somehow beyond the scope of your water treatment kit? Or was it a case of time taken for lab analysis to determine how you change your treatment of the water before it gets into locomotives and apparently causes havoc?

Thanks

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Your understanding is pretty much the same as mine - the chemical composition of the water supply has changed and the existing treatment equipment can't cope with the new supply. A solution - involving upgrading the equipment - has been identified and approved and could well have been installed already to head off any issues during the Santa Specials, which started today.

Steven

 

I could be wrong (it's not unknown!) but I think it is more likely to be the chemicals that need changing than the dosimetry equipment, although it too may need adjusting. Either way, the problem has been known about for a while and should be sorted - it's hardly rocket science but keeping the spec of the delivered water within limits does depend to a large degree on the spec of the incoming raw feed being fairly constant and that is probably where the problem lies. I would suspect that the sterility of the water is more of a concern to the suppliers than its chemical balance.

 

Good Evening from Down Under,

Excuse the Plug but In Australia pretty much all Steam locomotive operators use this company http://tandex.com.au/ to supply their treatment Chemicals.
The quality of the Water varies dramatically depending on what part of the country you are operating in and there is no need to change chemicals, although adding antifoam in some areas will be a big help!
The chemicals are added directly to the Tank on the Loco on a daily Basis or whenever the Tank is filled, rather than treating at the source.
Some Operators have been known to have no trouble getting 10 years from a set of tubes with some going well past that time.

For a bit more info watch the following video

 

A very interesting video, should be food for thought for new-build and restoration projects.

 

The problem with the water is twofold. The hardness of the water has increased and so has the alkalinity. This latter has taken it outside a capacity of the present system and new plant is required. I understand that the financial expenditure has now been authorised (thank you Mr Bean Counter) and new plant will be installed shortly. However, as always, it is not that simple as the new kit is bigger than the old and won't fit where the old is so new 'accommodation' needed.

 

Can anything be done short term to avoid damage to the loco boilers by-for instance- hand dosing direct into loco tenders? I recall some years ago watching support crews on mainline engines being watered direct from the public mains dropping very large white tablets into tenders.

Equally though if my memory serves, one of the support crew did appear to be undertaking some on-site testing with some basic equipment.

 

There are a variety of liquid water treatments such as 'Heatreat' which can be added directly into the tender/tank. Most seem to be based on tannin/sodium hydroxide and act as oxygen scavengers as well as increasing the pH - i.e. making the water more alkaline. As hinted at above it is important to monitor the boiler water as well as the supply. Ray.

 

Fire Tube boilers be they the Tank types at Sea or Land ( Scotch/Lancaster etc) or Locomotives have historically never been operated with the same degree of water treatment as Water Tube boilers. This was because the efficiency of the Fire Tubes types are so woeful that a bit of scale preventing heat transfer did not matter, you just chucked more coal etc in and the tubes/boiler smith repair labour costs were cheap.
Water tubes boilers are different and must efficiently transfer heat from the furnace to the water in the tube and if scale forms or the water flow is reduced the tubes sag/literally melt. I used to spend two or more hours a day monitoring and dosing even on the lower pressure 60bar pressure radiant water tube boilers , our company limit for TDS was 10ppm or 50ppm in an absolute emergency. Woe betide you if HQ found higher levels you would soon be advised to seek career advancement outside the company.

Tannin based treatments have been around for over 100 years, we used Houseman and Thompsons DM in low pressure 10 bar three furnace scotch boilers. I remember the Weirs dosing feedpump glands being covered in oozing sticky black goo. Even so we never operated the boilers with scale, if this was found we used Drew Ameroids SafAcid to remove all the scale at the first opportunity.

I was genuinely shocked at how crudely locomotive boilers were treated in regards to water treatment and levels of scale inside the boilers when I first got involved in railway preservation. It seems the high cost of maintenance in terms of labour and materials has now meant a change in thinking in the more progressive railways as regards care and maintenance of boilers and their source of feedwater, which can only be a good thing.

Brian

 

I'd suggest that the idea of thinking that a bit of scale didn't matter is a bit far removed from the fact in many cases. That bit of scale, if left on the firebox plates would soon lead to burning of them and a consequent thinning. Railways did an awful lot to try and rid firebox plates of scale. The idea of using acid to remove it has always been anathema with loco boilers and is not advised with riveted ones.
If you're using recirculated water and some form of regular controlled or continuous blowdown TDS levels that you mention are quite achievable. If you has a 'once through' system, as on virtually every steam loco built, such TDS levels are really in the land of dreams. On many railways, water is also taken from several sources and the quality of each source may well be different. This is rarely the case with industrial boilers of whatever type. Most heritage railways now dose their water by fair means or foul. With regard to the NYMR, their Footplate Superintendent also happens to run a water treatment business so I would reckon that the Railway's water treatment regime is fairly closely monitored. The dosing is not so hit and miss as pouring chemicals into the tank; it is a controlled dosing plant mixing with the water at every column (except the emergency supply at Goathland). Loco TDS, treatment level and alkalinity are checked on a daily basis for all operational locos. Locos that can be blown down are so done at least once and often twice a day. Yes, it would be good to have an R.O. plant but these aint cheap and three would be required, possibly four if Goathland becomes a regular watering hole, as is being considered.

 

Yes ,5428 in L M S can be seen on my Flickr site its http://www.flickr.com/photos/5611hongkong ,I hope that is what you are looking for.

 

News just about - the NYMR has won the HRA Annual Award (Large Groups).

The award was given in recognition of its operating a shared station with Network Rail which has blazed a trail for other railways to follow, and the associated resignalling at Grosmont using the salvaged Falsgrave gantry from Scarborough.

The net result has been an increase in the trains to Whitby with a boost to the local economy.

 

NYMR website says no services out of Pickering today due to an "engineering incident".

Anyone any idea what has happened?

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