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ORR to Reduce Mainline Train Lengths - the end of 12/13/14 coach trains

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by buseng, Jun 17, 2015.

  1. buseng

    buseng Member

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    Just had the latest SR through the door.
    Inside there is an article that as a repercussion of the 34067 WB incident ORR are going to limit steam tour train lengths to 11 coaches all told, maybe less in some cases.
    Loss of income is already being mentioned.
     
  2. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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    There have been discussions on here about the pros and cons of limiting train lengths BUT what has train length to do with the WB incident?
     
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  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Controlling the train !

    Brakes may stop the train but the inertia of the stock behind will push the train forward - especially with emergency stops. Open to question perhaps but a shorter train might NOT have pushed the loco onto the junction hence the ORR looking at this aspect of the incident.
     
  4. buseng

    buseng Member

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    Wear & tear on the loco plus steam loco acceleration speed on the ever increasing congested national network is also mentioned.
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    It is interesting that Vintage trains operate with shorter train lengths - as has been mentioned by others on other threads - and they seem happy with both income and expenditure figures. More relevant IMHO is the operation of steam trains abroad; most images I seen of German trips consist of around 6 /7 coaches only despite the locos hauling twice that load in operational service. If loadings approach the service levels it appears from internet videos I have seen that train speeds are cut accordingly; perhaps Spamcan81 may may have more experience of such workings.
     
  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Passenger Plandampf loads tend to be around four or five coaches to aid acceleration. Railtours tend to be longer, around the 6/7 as mentioned above but a quick look around YouTube will find loads of ten or more but then the dreaded "box on the back" rears its ugly head.
     
  7. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

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    Is this correct?

    I'd always been under the impression that a light engine's braking characteristics tended to be inferior to that of a carriage, hence the longer the train, the higher the braking force. The only factor I can see against this is that a longer train will take a bit longer for the vacuum to propagate thorough the length of the train.

    I would be interested in an experts view on this.
     
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  8. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Having spoken to a driver I am assured that a longer train, 12 coaches, will stop in the same distance as a
    7 coach train as each one is stopping itself on it's own brakes.
     
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  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Thanks Ralph for the correction; I admit that I had thought that whilst each coach is "self-braking" there was still a pushing action from the weight of each vehicle that affected the stopping distance of the whole train.
     
  10. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    A pair of HST power cars are restricted to 75 MPH due to the lack of coaches to help stop the train, so yes the coaches act as the brakes and the only time this wouldn't work if on slippery rails etc where all wheels lock and the train skids where less coaches will mean less pushing.
     
  11. savagethegoat

    savagethegoat New Member

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    It's obvious....each carriage is about 60' long, lop off two and the train will stop 120' sooner, thus avoiding a SPAD like WB.... makes perfect sense to me!
     
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  12. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    You are obviously joking, or has it not occurred to you that the front of the train is in the same position however many coaches are behind it.
     
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  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I despair...
     
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  14. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

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    Isn't it the other way round, with passenger coaches having if anything more effective brakes than steam locomotives?
     
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  15. savagethegoat

    savagethegoat New Member

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    obviously :)
     
  16. keith6233

    keith6233 New Member

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    Also in the same issue of SR the ORR are having a meeting with all interested party's about the future of mainline steam.
     
  17. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

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    A limit of "x" coaches for any motive power is clearly pointless. If ORR have a limit in mind it cannot possibly be owing to braking characteristics related to train length as several posters have said above. I have said on another thread that NR would be justified in putting a limit on what locomotives of different power can take but this is more to do with their ability to keep to schedule. I said that some may find the tension of wondering whether certain locomotives would manage to crawl over Shap exciting but that was no way to run a main line these days. I can't see this aspect as something where ORR would feel they should take a lead; it's much more for NR's capacity management interests. ORR might well be more concerned about braking ability of vacuum braked stock as against air braked stock which could lead to air brakes becoming a requirement for main line operation. Another area of legitimate concern, related to loading, is the problem of lineside fires which must be more likely if a locomotive is beyond its comfort level and is being flogged to a summit.
     
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  18. 83B

    83B New Member

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    Oh my God! I have just read in the latest Steam Railway that ORR is likely to impose a maximum trailing load, including support coach and barrier coach of 11 coaches throughout the network. I am just digesting the impact, but it is likely to be severe with fewer bums on seats and less revenue for the tour operators. The ORR has stated that the lighter loads will also make it easier for steam trains to fit into the modern timetable because with 11 coaches, accelleration will be more swift.

    I leave you with one thought. If this is strictly enforced, where does that leave the prestigeous Belmond Pullman with its considerable load of pullmans? This will be a very serious development for them as trains often load to a fully loaded rake of 13 coaches including support coach. One suspects that they would not consider reducing their rakes to 10 coaches plus support!

    There is a "Summit" between the ORR and key mainline steam owners and tour operators and promoters with a date to be announced, and clearly there will much to discuss!
     
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    A sensible decision in principle, in my view. We've discussed overloaded trains on here already and if making the adjustment official forces a reappraisal of costings and also secures steam paths then so much the better.
     
  20. lil Bear

    lil Bear Member

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    Oh good, another sensationalised post. Always count on Nat Pres for such!

    Think you'll find the cap is suggested for solo haulage, so if the load is greater then a Diesel banker will be required. The VSOE will remain unaffected, as it always has a 67 on rear anyway.

    As Big Al says a sensible decision all things considering, less wear on the locos and the better acceleration helps ease bathing into what is becoming a much faster railway.
     
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