P2 Locomotive Company and related matters

Therein lies part of the problem. Look at what it has taken to get 4472 back to the state it is in now, let alone running by 2015. The main line locos aren't getting any younger and the 'procession to the plinth' is inevitable for many of them. If we don't start to plan for the future now, what will happen to main line steam in 10, 20 or 30 years? And no, I'm not accepting the defeatist whinge of 'there may not be any main line steam by then'!



Foxy

 

Is your proposal supposed to mean we do not restore so many original locos there is sufficient work to justify the building of new? I'm not really convinced that there is sufficient business to be had to provide enough work for the existing operational fleet, let alone any more new engines.

 

Wasn't there actually a shortage of mainline engines this year, leading to cancellations? In which case doesn't that suggest there are too few mainline engines, not too many?

Whether that scarcity is down to a lack of engines, or lack of capacity to restore engines, is another question. Building new definitely helps with one of those problems, and potentially helps with the other if you assume that in general, a new engine will be quicker to overhaul than an old one, which is probably the case for at least the first 20 or 30 years in traffic. For example, Tornado and FS are both basically big LNER 3 cylinder pacifics. But I bet Tornado's next overhaul will be much quicker and cheaper than FS' current one.

Tom

 

Certainly not enough Class 7/8 locos around at the moment for main line work if the number of tours cancelled through loco unavailability is anything to go by. Whilst a new P2 won't solve this in the short term, it will be a useful addition to the pool when it's completed. Plus how many of the current main line fleet will get another overhaul?

 

The trouble is that 'original locos' are getting older, and older. The youngest are already 50 years old and the oldest are approaching their 90th year. The march of time and metal fatigue will slowly whittle their numbers down and the crazy policy of constantly trying to refurbish old boilers makes even less sense (how much is left of the original A3 boiler? 10%, 15% maximum?) - that's not preservation, it's scrapping by degrees!

Foxy

 

I think you'll find said 'crazy policy' is to do with the current pressure vessel rules. Nothing that has to work can really be said to be 'preserved' when it necessarily has to comply with ever-changing regulations on top of normal wear and tear. Only when it is safely deactivated and stored inside can it truly be said to be preserved for future generations, e.g. Gladstone.

 

Fortunately, there will never be calls to bring this one out and steam it, because it couldn't be painted BR black. Otherwise, I'm sure David Wilcock would be agitating for it!

 

I actually disagree...

The current grey haired generation want BR as it recalls there youth, but when the 70's/80's generation becomes grey, they may well be calling for their youth.. Which was a lot less BR liveries than today.
Similarly there is an interest in all things Victorian, which Stanier, Gresley and Bulleid don't fill

I had a nice view of 21C123 yesterday, pity it was still parked in the same spot where it stood 10 years ago ... But a 21C167 on a mainline Railtour would look fantastic and draw as much acclaim as 4464 currently does.

 

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/blog/2013/11/new-p2-to-be-named-prince-of-wales

 

NEW STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO BE NAMED ‘PRINCE OF WALES’In honour of Prince Charles’s 65th Birthday, Britain’s most powerful steam locomotive is to be named after the heir to the throne​

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The P2 Steam Locomotive Company (P2SLC), the builder of Britain’s most powerful steam locomotive, is delighted to announce that the name of its new Gresley class P2 2-8-2 steam locomotive will be ‘Prince of Wales’. The new steam locomotive is being named in honour of HRH Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, to coincide with his 65th birthday celebrations and The Queen has kindly approved the use of His Royal Highness’s name for the locomotive.

The P2 Steam Locomotive Company is a subsidiary of The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust (a registered charity), the builders and operators of No. 60163Tornado, the world-famous new steam locomotive completed in 2008 and officially named by TRH The Prince of Wales and The Duchess of Cornwall at York station on 19th February 2009.

The mission of the P2SLC is to develop, build and operate an improved Gresley class P2 steam locomotive for main line and heritage railway use. These 2-8-2 locomotives were the most powerful express passenger locomotives to operate in the UK, designed by Sir Nigel Gresley to haul 600 ton trains on the arduous Edinburgh to Aberdeen route. Sadly the design was never fully developed and they were rebuilt in 1943/4. The P2SLC is building the 7thmember of this class and will demonstrate how the design can be fully realised through use of modern computer design and modelling techniques, enabling it to deliver its full potential hauling passenger trains at high speed across the national network. It is estimated that £5m will be needed to build No. 2007 over 7-10 years, with funds being raised through public subscription. The formal launch of the project will take place in February 2014.

There have been many steam locomotives named after The Prince of Wales over the years. These included Gresley class A3 No. 2553 (later No. 60054)Prince of Wales, sister locomotive to No. 4472 Flying Scotsman, which was named by HRH The Prince of Wales (later King Edward VIII) on a visit to Doncaster Works on 11th November 1926. This locomotive was scrapped in 1964.

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Mark Allatt, Chairman, The P2 Steam Locomotive Company, commented:

“HRH The Prince of Wales has been a fantastic supporter Tornado and along with HRH The Duchess of Cornwall formally named the new locomotive in 2009. Since then, Tornado has hauled the Royal train on no less than three occasions on behalf of Prince Charles, so we are only too delighted to be able to confirm the name for No.2007 in his honour. It is well known HRH has a passion for our heritage and a particular interest in steam, but also the skills and craftsmanship required to build a steam locomotive from scratch. It is a clear demonstration that the UK can still turn its hand to quality heavy engineering, making use of modern techniques design and construction techniques whilst engaging and inspiring a new generation that nothing is beyond the realms of possibility.”

 

Excellent news which again should attract worldwide interest as with Tornado, and what better way to promote British skills......and some birthday present.......POW 65 today..........

 

Fair enough, but I can't help thinking that would have been more appropriate to use one of his Scottish titles, such as Duke of Rothesay or better yet Lord of the Isles.

 

Agreed, it does seem like a large jump from the usual naming procedure for the P2's. And while the Prince of Wales has been a major part of the A1's story ( naming, Royal Train trips etc... ), I can't help but think they are to be building a LNWR machine next with this naming....

However, good on the P2 Group anyway. From their perspective, I suspect it's an act of gratitude and possibly a good way of further advertisement. Best of luck to them!

 

...and what about A3 No. 2553, VoR No. 9, Armstrong No. 1132, Star No. 4041......


Foxy

 

Agree, but I suspect marketing has a lot to do with it. Everyone knows who the PoW is, so that is a considerable coup for the project. If they called her "Lord of the Isles", the meaning is the same but the publicity much less. But Lord of the Isles would be so much finer!

That was exactly the thought that went through my mind...

Tom

 

Wish I got birthday presents like that...........

 

Could have been a lot worse - Baroness Thatcher of Kesteven!

 

Aww, I was hoping for Cock o The South....

 

One of the striking features of the P2s, and very noticeable in the latest picture, was their short connecting rods (which famously led to the ugly proportions of the Thompson rebuilds). That short length means, at mid-stroke of the piston, a steeper angle to the horizontal than with most locomotive designs, and consequently larger vertical forces on the slide bars and the crank pin. Estimating the actual rod length and the cylinder pressure at mid stroke, I calculate a vertical force of something like 4 tons on the front driving wheel at low speed, long cut-off, and maybe half that at high speed, short cut-off. Presuming an axle load of about 22 tons, 11 tons per wheel, an extra 4 tons at low speed or 2 tons (plus hammer blow) at high speed seems a lot.

Any thoughts, anyone?