Paignton and Dartmouth Railway

whilst i know the locos will allways be named what does this achieveother thanthe odd 3 year old seeing it calling it by its name and fforgetting it a hour later why dont the plates be made smaller and but on as a headboard type thing on the running boards making them removeable

 

Whooah.....can we at least try for some punctuation! I had to read this 3 times before I could decipher it. My punctuation and spelling isn't fantastic, but for the sake of people trying to read the post you have to at least try.

 

OK, leave it there please, we've already done this

Matt, several have already picked up on Jordans posts before so we don't need to again

Jordan, please read through your posts as I suggested on MSN the other night to help improve their legibility

OK, now back on topic, this was an interesting read. :-$

 

I can see where you're coming from but just unbolting the things on enthusiast events would suffice. It would only be once a year so no great fuss.

 

Yep, I agree, this is going from the sublime to the ridiculous! (bullying isn't what this is all about)

 

For me, the strength of the Kingswear line (that's what I end up calling it) is that it is authentic in 21st century terms. It is run so as to maximise revenue, and I respect that commercial approach. Accepting credit cards would be even more commercial, and customers expect that. Not accepting them makes it look a bit amateurish. I wouldn't expect Auntie Matilda on the door at the Twistlethwaite village fete to take them, but come on we're big boys now!

If the SDR were to bring a couple of auto coaches and 5526, that would look nice for the occasional weekend gala. Borrow a Manor in proper BR livery, or better still put 7827 into BR livery, and the enthusiasts should be happy. But overall, this is a tourist, not an enthusiast, line.

John

 

I totally agree that the P&DSR is a tourist railway in the main, but surely no railway is going to turn down the chance of extra revenue? During the months when there are effectively no tourists around, its perfectly feasible to put on a small gala and/or driver experience days for enthusiasts. For certain Mr FC and I would go as we love the railway. Friendly staff, scenic railway etc etc.

FC

 

Supposing 7827 was in lined BR green (exactly as it should be) and the Mk1s were in a more accurate BR chocolate and cream livery, I can't believe that joe public and family would turn up at the railway and think, "Urghh, that says 'British Railways' on the train - I'm not travelling on that!". I bet most people won't notice the difference with a slightly darker, bluer green, less elaborate lining, and a s/box plate in place of the buffer beam number...?

I can understand the case with 5239, to a point, (although I don't like it), but with 7827 in particular I don't understand! It just seems like they're a couple of small steps away from having a fully authentic loco/train combination but they're not interested. Perhaps I'm missing something...?

I'm not saying re-paint the whole loco fleet into authentic liveries without the names, but how about just one of the operational steam locos?

 

considering that lydham manor has been a GWR engine longer than it was a BR one i think theres little point in returning it to BR ?

ajax is in an authentic livery well it was until its smoke box plate, vanished and 6435 appeared on its buffer beam, and i think the name plates look good on its centre splasher.

IIRC it was something to do with the whole train needed a refurb. and the cost of the refurb wasn't feasable against the money made.

I like the idea of the fish and chip specials, but one problem they've ripped out all the tables from the coaches so where would you eat the food to? - same with the cream teas.

Tuffers: can you tell us whats happening with the autocoaches?? i seen a pic on the web of them both up in churston, have they been sold? and as Stu in torbay asked whats going on in goodrington??

 

I can't really comment on this railway since i have never been on it but do intend to in the future (I intend to go on all the Preserved lines one of these days). But what i have picked up on is that authentic liveries are important, even to non enthusiasts unless of course it's a Thomas event and then anything goes. But that is only a side issue the Three main points a preserved line must do to before anything else.

1. The basics. Clean Stations, Clean coaches and trains that run on time. Muck that up and customers will take there custom else where. Also a shop, can't beat a shop on the platform.

2. The customer always knows best. It doesn't matter how bad a day it might be it could be flooding and half the track might of gone and everything is going tits up but staff must always be happy to help. There is no such words as "i don't know" there's only "i will check" followed by a honest answer. It is very off putting to get a lie when you just want to know something.

3. A good website. Ok it might not be really that important to running a railway but i look at a lot of Railway websites and some are just plain awful but for the most part they are a great source of information on what is going on and what they have on the line. I wish and pray for the day when the SVR puts up a stock list on it's main website. Mind you it doesn't have to be flashy ether. As long as it's to the point and has good information that is up to date it's fine.

The P&DR is western region so they should have everything ether in GWR colours or BR WR colours and the stations should match. Return to the routes and give the whole place that GWR seaside holiday feel.
But what do i know i haven't been there yet. Now Bodmin has a really nice station if i don't mind saying so and all they need to do is move all of those coaches and add a second platform it might be even better if not worse parking wise.

 

Not sure about that. With famous locos (Scotsman and maybe Truro) the public expect to see a certain colour, but generally they don't notice and wouldn't care. My mother has been dragged to railways for years yet if/when we go the PDR she has never, would never say "there's an extra line on that Manors tender" and if I told her she would not care in the slightest.

 

[quote="1420bulliver] considering that lydham manor has been a GWR engine longer than it was a BR one i think theres little point in returning it to BR [/quote]

I thought BR built 7827 in 1950, so it was never a GWR loco (GWR ceased to be in 1947) ?

 

I agree with Broomhalla. Visitors may not know the details of locomotive liveries, but they have a tacit expectation that we, the 'experts' have provided them with as historically accurate a presentation as possible, i.e. that we've got it right. Sometimes we can't achieve 100 per cent authenticity, but the key is to be honest with our visitors and tell them about the compromises we've made. I know about as little as its possible to know about art, but I enjoy it, and I would expect all the paintings in a Turner gallery to be by Turner. If for some reason they sneak in a Constable, I may not immediately know the difference, so I expect to be told. To say "the enthusiasts know and the rest don't care" is not really on. I wonder whether some visitors come away from the P&DR thinking that the loco names are historically accurate? I don't have a problem with the engines' names, so long as its made clear to visitors that giving engines names is something the P&DR has done (and why not?) rather than a representation of history.

 

Ok, the logical explaination on the livery thing can be summed up as follows:

Non-authentic = Joe Public happy, Enthusiasts unhappy
Authentic = Joe Public happy, Enthusiasts happy

So, if Happy = more visitors = more £££, then it is a no brainer that authentic wins.

 

But would the casual visitor consider it "important" for 7827 so have the right lining out on its tender?

 

I should have said that 7827 has been a Honorary GWR engine for longer than it was A BR one:
BR owned - 1950 - 1965 - 15 years
Dart valley - 1970 - present - 37 years

7827 has always run as a "GWR" engine in preservation. ie. Always in Great western green.

 

What is stopping the change to authentic liveries on the P&DR is simply the cost of repainting them and relining them to the correct liveries. They don't want to spend money till they have to what means not till there next boiler certification when the whole engine is stripped down to it's part and everything is checked. Or if it so winds you up start a petition.
The Flying Scotsman is a classic example of the battle between liveries but considering the Scotsman is by a long way the most biggest sponge when it comes to money in the whole preservation industry it's not surprising that it's going to stay LNER green for a long time to come. Joe public only knows her as the Doncaster green record breaking engine and they want it to stay that way. The only way now to see a A3 in BR green would be to build a new one. What considering how much money has been spent on her you could have built at least another one if not two if you go by how much Tornado cost to build.

Right back to the issue at hand. Could someone please post some pictures or point out a site that has pictures of the P&DR stations.

 

Casual visitor, IMHO no. Not detial like lining. If it was done out like Mr Blooby (yikes, remember that thing!!) then maybe.
If they were interested in the lining, they I think they would fall into the 'enthusiast' category. Of coure, there is no hard line separating the two, which adds to the complexity.

It still comes back to the fact that if the liveries were correct, EVERYONE would be happy, and we wouldn't need to have the conversations (good though the debating is!!)

Broomhalla - As a start, have a search in Google images for each, I had a quick look just now - returns quite good results.

 

All depends on the context. If the railway tells (or even hints to) its visitors that what it's doing is authentic, then yes. If what the railway is doing has nothing to do with history, and its visitors know that, then no. What none of us should do is deliberately create a grey area - a mix of authentic when it suits us and not authentic when it suits us - just so that we can get away with what we like.

But as Stu hints above, why does the P&DR bother putting in all that effort to get it wrong? I reckon the railway's painted itself into a bit of a corner with its presentation that would be very hard to get out of, even if it wanted to. Personally I think engines and carriages with spurious names is a bit 'last year'. We're told that the P&DR isn't going to change its mind on liveries, names etc. I'd be interested to hear why they think its approach continues to make good business sense. No doubt it did once, but now...?

 

6435 'Ajax' is my favourite on this line - reminds me of my much younger days on the Plymouth - Launceston line, though the 64xx and auto trains usually only ran as far as Tavistock South. I have seen a photo of a 64xx at Launceston though.

As for the smokebox numberplate disappearing, to be replaced by a painted number on the bufferbeam, this is not totally non-authentic. I recall that in the early 1960s, Laira shed turned out a few 55xx locos in this way - a bit of Great Western Region spirit. I still prefer numbers to be on the smokebox, and naming a small pannier tank is a bit naff. Still, if that is really what the public want, I suppose ... It wouldn't hurt to unbolt them for a gala in the off-season as FC suggested.

John