Paignton and Dartmouth Railway

Run itself into the ground? TA would you like to explain your meaning there or is it ok if I take immediate offence to you?


Regards

 

Maybe hes trying to start up the old nameplate and livery debate, I wonder if he read the first few pages of this thread.

 

I know you won't like me saying this but the PDR isn't there to please you. It is there to do a job and hopefully make some money for its shareholders. I don't know whether it does the latter but, as I've said before, it does an excellent job of shifting Joe Public from Paignton to Dartmouth and vice versa. And isn't that what railways are all about?
How would you react if the Railway decided that it was going to move into the 21st century and build three or four of the much discussed 5AT's to run its service and pension off its ageing GW locos? Would it be applause or shock, horror?

 

At the end of the day I agree they are there doing something which as far as I'm aware no other railways is specifically doing, running as a preserved railway in the form of a business with paid staff and still making a profit, something which as I've said before should be applauded not abused in such a fashion. I personally don't mind what livery an engine is in as long as it looks good is done professionally (Which I believe the PDSR does) and is IN STEAM. I much prefer this to sat in a museum or in a siding somewhere rotting.

Also apart from the scenery and location etc it is only there as a tourist attraction because of its motive power if this wasn't there I'm sure it wouldn't have the same attraction. After all we have to remember it only exists today because of the foresight of a few businessmen back in the 70's who saw it's potential (which BR didn't at a time) when lets face it railway preservation wasn't what it was today. It's because of those few it does exist for us all to enjoy.

They now have a new GM and you may or may not like his methods but he's only been there for less than six months, not really enough time to "make his mark" so to speak so should wait and see what he develops, and what happend with the events planned for 2009.

Also Steve I believe my reaction would be shock and horror as I'm sure would yours if it ever became a real possibility.

 

When all is said and done, I'm glad that you can still go by train from Paignton to Kingswear, unlike Maiden Newton to Bridport, another scenic Westcountry line which BR also pulled out of in the 1970s. The management will paint its locos whatever colour they like, and are perfectly entitled to do so. We can only ask nicely if they will stick with a reasonably authentic livery, on the basis that it's just as easy to get it right as get it wrong. Jo Public, standing in the queue about to buy tickets for self, wife and four kids, probably couldn't care less, and he's the guy who keeps the operation in the black.

Buit it does seem that the new management is prepared to listen more to enthusiasts, so lets be realistic and not alienate them by being demanding.

 

Well said,
Endless posts that criticise the railway & it's staff serve little purpose in my view.
OK, for years it's not how a many of us would like to see a preseved railway run, but at least it was saved in 1972.
If it was currently operating using railcars it's better than what BR planned for it!

Had it not been purchased by the DVR, then much of the route would undoubtedly have been taken for development by now.

I note conciliatory tones from the railway more and more nowadays, so lets give a bit of praise for listening to the enthusiasts, even if it's been a long time coming.

You never know 2009 could be the start of a new era.

Steve

 

Afternoon all

I don't post much on here but here goes...

Applause? GWR (or other) locos will not last forever, and certainly not hauling at the mileage and weights that some of our major lines. Some new steam traction would be almost inevitable, in time.

Patrick

 

I would applaud it. Isn't building new locos to replace outworn assets what railways have done since they first started. We're always sad to see old favourites go- that's life - but, as a steam man, I'm not bothered in what reasonable form it comes.
As regards livery, when ex BR steam locos were first bought by the Heritge railways, they weren't allowed to paint them in BR livery. Hence the likes of KWVR painting their Ivatt Cl 2 in maroon and the LHR painting their Fairburn tank in Caley Blue. I sometimes feel that we have lost out because BR rescinded that stipulation. What colour would the NYMR and SVR, amongst others, have painted their locos? Would they each have adopted their own individual house livery and what would it have been? Time for a new topic, perhaps?

 

Apologies for taking this off topic from the PDSR...but.....

As far as I am aware there are at least three other railways running as a business with all paid staff. Brecon Mountain Railway, Launceston Steam Railway and the Vale of Rheidol Railway. All smaller outfits than the PDSR but nonetheless doing the same thing.

I'm sure others will correct/add to the list if I've got anything wrong!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they all narrow gauge, but in fairness to your point I'll rephrase mine to:

At the end of the day I agree they are there doing something which as far as I'm aware no other Standard Gauge railway is specifically doing, running as a preserved railway in the form of a business with paid staff and still making a profit. As another point I am aware there are a few volunteer staff other than those at Churston if you know where to look

 

Snowdon, Bala Lake, Llanberris, Fairbourne, most minature lines, Lakeside (I think) all operate on a business basis with limited or no volunteer assistance.

There is no reason the Torbay and Dartmouth could not paint its' rolling stock in proper liveries. By doing this they could only increase numbers. It certainly doesn't do the NYMR or SVR any harm! Although the railway often runs to current capacity in the peak six weeks it could make a fortune with proper promotion of events during the shoulder season. That said we wouldn't want them to take too much away from the SDR...

As a former resident of S.Devon I never went to the railway. I now live in Bath and in the last few weeks have been to Bodmin, Launceston, Severn Valley, Foxfield, GC and Churnet Valley. I would be straight to Paignton if it wasn't anything more than a fairground (although with hard working engines).

Now just imagine a rake of maroon stock or proper Chocolate and Cream mark1s behind a BR green manor or a black tank on that line...even a GWR liveried engine would be acceptable!

Where is that lottery ticket...

 

To be quite frank and honest I think the lottery ticket and a hell of a llot of shares is what you'll need before they will listen to just one person. That aside I think there i a wave of change which is grdually coming and I believe was coming through before the change in GM's even if gradually. I think this is mostly due to Tuffer voicing our views and concerns and I think we owe him (and the few others from the PDSR who are on this forum) possibly a bit more than we may credit them for.
After all it would have taken quite a while to plan and run the Heritage Weekend last year!!

As I said earlier in this thread Rome wasn't built in a day and any changes will need to be phased in over a period of time, after all the if it isn't broke don't fix it option has been at Paignton for quite a while. I also know from general conversation with some of the staff they also want change and I believe it is coming just look at the new events for this year, whether they are entirely what people wanted or referenced to time will tell.
The only way the board will tell is in cold hard black and white figures to show them events will be supported and maybe when some of us visit more often (I'm sure more of the people complaining here could have visited the Heritage Weekend if they really wanted too) then maybe these changes would arrive sooner.

I also must say I probably visited the PDSR more times last year than I would like to admit to what with following the Torbay Express and all, how many of those who follow it actually take a train ride on the PDSR if everyone who did travelled by their line then the figures would go up and show that people want it.

 

I first visited the P&DR in the seventies, as an impressionable young lad, when 4472 was visiting. Along with the SDR, it gave me my first experiences of working steam. My next visit, after 20 or more years ,was in 2002. I felt more than a tinge of disappointment at its obvious commercialism and "touristy" atmosphere but, equally, a respect for its standards of maintenance of rolling stock, premanent way and,especially, its locomotives. And an admiration for its efficiency and the enormous numbers of people it moved:-and at the end of the day, all done by steam!!
In subsequent visits my feelings toward the line changed when I used it for the purpose it was intended for:-i.e public transport. Visit it purely as an enthusiast and there was a tinge of disappointment. Use it as a means of getting around and, more importantly, abandoning the car, and I felt differently about it.e.g , parking up at Churston, catching the train to Kingswear, then spending a few hours on a circular walk around the cliffs, out of Kingswear:- catching the train enabled that experience without the hassle of driving to and parking at Kingswear. Similarly I avoided the "Round Robin" tour for a few years as "too touristy". But when I finally succumbed I had a perfectly pleasant and fun day out by boat , bus and train. And, once again, free of the shackles of the car for a day.
I haven't seen the railway's connections with the boats and buses mentioned on this forum. But it is a wonderful example of an integrated transport system and a day out I have recommended to others. If only the boat was a steam launch and the buses were routemasters!! We can dream.!! How many car journeys does the P&DR ( and the associated boats/buses )take off the congested South Hams roads, and does it shout loudly enough about this ? Is the "Round Robin" concept worthy of an exhibition, or even leaflets, that demonstrate the principles of an integrated transport system or how the railway is doing its bit for the local environment? I sometimes worry that it is a matter of time before the environmentalists turn their attentions toward our steam heritage with its "archaic,smoky pollutive machinery" and lobby for restrictive and costly practices or worse. Perhaps heritage(and tourist) railways need to get there first e.g the P&DR advertising its beneficial impact on the local environment. "The P&DR and the Round Robin,leave your car at home" :- "the green day out with the green engines". Well you get the drift.!!
It is a shame that the P&DR has been referrred to as a fairground or a "steam theme park" on times. It is still a serious piece of standard gauge railway with some significant and imposing structures and all the challenges of upkeep that they must bring. When travelling on the Torbay Express, once again, I view the line in a different light. It is a delightful conclusion to a first class main line trip with steam. The line then feels like a natural extension of the national network and no more or less commercial than, Temple Meads or Taunton or anywhere else en-route. For me, the sweeping approach into Kingswear is the jewel in the crown. Kingswear station itself is a gem but doesn't look its best. If it could be fully restored and spruced up to the standard of stations on many heritage lines, with authentic signage,lamps, hanging baskets and other platform furniture, then I am sure it would add to the general visitor experience as well as appeal to the enthusiast. Maybe scope there for a volunteer group, as at Churston. And how about, in time, an authentic station buffet, perhaps serving real ales exclusively from West Country brewers and microbrewers.!!
In the meantime, an annual real ale festival.
In conclusion, just some ideas and observations, maybe far fetched I don't know. But maybe some different twists and turns on what has been written already in this forum. And ideas are just ideas, and they are free!!!

 

Some interesting points JMR. Just some comments.

Firstly the present Bristol VRTs are far better than any Routemaster. Traditional Devon buses (of a similar era to Routemasters) working in Devon - I take far more pics (but still not many!) of their buses than their trains. Now if they were painted in a version of Devon General livery.....obviously couldn't use the name but they would be an attraction in their own right!

The T&DR as an integrated transport system is an interesting concept but at the end of the day most people make the journey for the sake of it rather than get from AtoB. If you want to do that there is a perfectly good bus service. Perhaps lower costs fares (through council grants as per bus services) and a reasonable service outside the peak weeks could strengthen its' position on this.

IMHO the railway will always be a fairground until they take the heritage element seriously. I don't really have a problem with the names on engines (although they could be better positioned) but the lining and paint jobs are just daft and belong on a fairground.

The last paragraph all makes perfect sense and would do so much more to improve the railway. They have duty to protect Kingswear Station - by turning it into a visitor attraction in its' own right (a true destination) would make that job so much easier.

They could do all the above without losing one passenger and gain alot more. I can not see why they don't do it as it makes perfect business sense. That bloke in Jersey and many others can see they are missing profit opportunities in so many areas, which is such a shame as it could be so good!

 

I disagree, in fact I think quite the opposite. People love things to have names, especially engines and carriages, they couldnt care less about whether the number or livery is correct. The engines could be painted day-glo pink and I think it would probably attract more people still.
I'm just going from the opinions and reactions of 'general public' family and friends when I've dragged them off to a railway (Theres a lot of experience there!).

 

What proportion of visitors to a steam railway would know what a "proper livery" is?

Judging by the photos on the current P&DR website, the Mk.1s are painted in a version of GWR livery. How many visitors are going to know if this is historically correct version of GWR livery? Or whether it was ever used on this sort of carriage?

Personally, I find their "GWR" livery works better than the version which BR applied to a rake of Mk1s for the GW150 celebrations.

Richard

 

Seeing as paint has raised its head, personally I think a lot of people would be happy if 7827 at least was repainted.

The Tanks now have names, so a inauthentic livery doesn't make much difference. You can understand the logic of why it has been done and to be honest I do agree with it. Families seem to prefer named angines, no matter their size as it gives them something to relate to.

7827 though had a name in BR service, and still caries this very name. If only this loco could be repainted it would encourage more enthusiasts, as the Manors are popular locos themselves and to have it in correct livery would satisfy this side of the market.

 

The whole P&DSR livery debate is actually a simple logical argument, in which re-painting in authentic liveries HAS to be the answer.

I will explain:

Non-authentic liveries = Happy public (because they are none the wiser) + unhappy enthusiasts = P&DSR loose out on potential visitor revenue.
Authentic liveries = Happy public (because they are none the wiser) + happy enthusiasts = P&DSR cater for ALL and maximize visitor revenue.

From this, we see that authentic liveries won't put off the current visitors, but will attract ones who currently stay away for this reason. So, if the potential extra revenue outweighs the cost of re-paints (which - perhaps with the exception of the locos - could be done under routine mtce, next time a vehicle is due a re-paint) Then there is the business case for it.
Simple!

 

Your arguments make sense - will the P&DSR come to the same conclusion? It's possible, as it seems like a few changes are afoot with the new GM.

Agree 100%. When 75014 emerges from overhaul, a two-train service hauled by this engine and a re-painted 7827 would certainly draw the enthusiasts, regardless of what shade of chocolate & cream the Mk 1 coaches were painted.

The bottom line is that the P&DSR has some lovely scenery, some steep gradients and runs long trains, so the engines have to work hard. It's potentially a winning formula, and a few tweaks are all that is needed to make it a very worthwhile line for enthusiasts.

 

Its a bit more complicated than that. Unauthentic livery means locos can be named and means happy joe public and family who tell their friends.

authentic livery means enthusiasts turn up complain livery isn't quite right to some some degree, complain, general make a fuss and put off fair paying families.