Paignton and Dartmouth Railway

The P&DSR is a PLC. It is called the Nations Holiday Line and whilst it is a steam hauled line (the diesels are only works trains or carriage movers) it makes no pretense of being a replica of the erstwhile G.W.R. It has every right to choose which liveries its stock carries and which colour it paints its buildings. Every Company has that option and its own "house" colours or theme in one form or another and the P&DSR has achieved this on its steam locos whether built prior or post 1948.

The reasons for the liveries, names etc. have been gone over frequently here, and elsewhere, but the railway does what it sets out to do: that is move people from one town to another and whilst doing so gives most of the travelers a great day out, relief to the narrow roads in the locality and avoids the difficulties tourists often encounter with car parking.

One wonders what the G.W.R. livery would be today had it not been nationalized. Very different to pre 1948 I venture to say. I find at odds the fact that many enthusiasts countenance the distortion of history in photographing locomotives which have numbers applied - as though they still existed and had not been scrapped. Many who research railway history often rely on photographic evidence quite heavily. What price for future historians who come across the 'fakes' in the photographs and waste their time unraveling whether a loco existed or not! That to my mind is more detrimental to future railway history than slightly incorrect liveries.

 

OK, fair point - but you can't put the livery thing to bed until you are SURE you are not missing out on potential revenue by not doing it. This is purely a business check. In these times EVERYTHING that increases revenue has to be considered, but as I said, the potential needs to be quantified and balanced against the actual costs. If the P&DSR are considering galas aimed mainly at enthusiasts, then for them to be profitable, the livery/names thing just can't be ignored.

 

I'd imagine that right now the livery which most visitors and enthusiasts could directly relate to would be the BR late crest one, as seen in the 1960s. As said, the GWR (SR/LMS/LNER) disappeared 60 years ago, though admittedly lingered on for a few years until everything got repainted.

 

Many visitors may now be hard pressed to remember double arrows! BR green was on the way out over 40 years ago now. We are all getting old....

 

well to conduct an unscientific survey, is there anyone on this forum who hasn't visited the P&DR solely because of the livery that the stock is painted in (or would not attend a gala for the same reason and no other).

 

If I look at my visits to Devon I would visit the railway four to five times per year if it was worth a visit (IMO). I wouldn't always travel but I would make a contribution when I didn't travel.

Currently I make a fleeting visit once every three years or so (usually around a Torbay Exp. or a trip to Dartmouth) and never spend any money.

I know many people (including a fair few Devon residents) who also avoid the railway as their opinion is the same as mine - the rly offers very little to anyone apart from Crockles.

With the exception of Torbay Express how often does this scenic line appear in the railway press? The lack of pics suggests a lack of enthusiast visitors.

Cut down on the lining and don't paint window frames chocolate for starters. Maybe paint the Manor BR green and add BR logos to the coaches and a whole new market opens up....give it ago and see what happens! Nothing will be lost that is for sure.

Then enter dream world with telegraph poles, put arms back on the pegs destroyed my previous management, rebuild Brit halt - it could be one of the best lines in the country!

 

This seems to be a falacy, I have in recent years seen plenty of pictures of the line in the railway press including at least one front cover.

 

I can not think of many published pics apart from the 'new' engines on launch (Manor, Std 4 and 2-8-0) and the Torbay Express/other railtours.

In any case there is nowhere near as many as say a similar length line that is more popular with enthusiasts such as the Mid Hants, GC, GWR, East lancs etc. It is the same with photo websites such as UKRP.

Some of this may be down to a lack of variety (and no galas) but I am sure a lot of people are put off by the liveries (look at this topic!) and non-authenthic feel.

 

That's what I am trying to establish - so far in this unscientific survey the jury is still out.

 

Why don't you do a UKRP pole?

Question: Would you visit the P&DR more often if it offered more for the enthusiast (eg galas, correct liveries etc).

Cheers,

 

Watching this thread there's seems to be two sides to the fence here, one is the tourism side - acting as a public transport carrier and making money, the other is as your typical Heritage railway - recreating the past as best as possible.

Why can't you do both ?, operate the trains, catering mostly for tourists during the busy summer months and giving them generally what they want to see, but during the out of season spring/autumn, take the nameplates off the loco's for a weekend, run an intensive timetable and possibly look at hiring a loco if the passenger figures justify it, a gala could be a nice little earner during the off season when Paignton is quiet.

 

I have heard rumors of a visiting diesel for the heritage wknd. Dont think any visiting steamers, but not quite sure what loco roster is planned for the wknd yet.

 

It is necessary to counter some of the comments made by Hunslet.

Many local people do travel often on the railway, especially outside the main holiday times of July/August. I know, I see them. As Kingswear Village and Dartmouth have limited parking, plus the cost of the car ferry, many do take the easy way and go by train.

Admittedly Dartmouth Regatta is only one week, at the end of August, but a great many of the travelers are local people; hence the extra trains that are needed to cope with much larger numbers of passengers.

The Country is in a severe financial situation: many being laid off work and extreme tightness in their spending ability. This is not going to improve this year so it seems that all preserved railways, and tourist attractions, will find economies very necessary. It is most unlikely, I suggest even foolhardy, to spend a large sums of money installing telegraph poles (which would only be decorative and serve no real function other than bird perches). Those who think "green" would, I suggest, be quite critical at such an unnecessary waste of timber.

Britannia Halt? Fine if you have a one or two car train, but with trains requiring anything from seven to twelve cars this would be a logistical disaster let alone causing annoyance to those using the car ferry by creating even more delay than they have already at busy times.

On the subject of train lengths I have heard many say that the long trains give them the feel of going on a real journey, now there is a good "dream world" I guess, although they know they are only going a short one.

 

P&D trains have working PA from memory, what's wrong with announcing "Passengers for Britannia Halt, please sit in the front/rear 2 coaches" ?, trains longer than certain platforms are very common on some lines and it poses them no great problems.

If Britannia Halt is by the crossing of the same name (about half a mile or so out of Kingswear) woulden't it pose a problem towards restarting towards Paignton with little or no run at the bank towards Greenway Tunnel ?, probably woulden't bother the freight tanks but the manor might make heavy weather of more than load 8 starting from there.

 

The original Halt was in fact less than one coach in length. It was removed as a request from HMRI as part of the work to install the barriers in the late 1980's as it prevented the crossing keeper from having a clear view of the vehicles coming off the ferry and up the slipway towards the crossing. When the crossing box was still a manual installation the last up train of the day would often stop to pick up the crossing keeper to take him back to Churston. A standing start on a 1 in 80 with a 45xx and upto load 9 was fun.

I'm not sure fully on the present regulations, but any new station, and that is what any future Halt would be, are required to be long enough to cope with trains stopping, unless of course trains have central door locking with selective door opening.

 

Some years back 4555 was in an authentic version of plain Great Western green, then 4588 was painted into British railways lined green, and later still 6435 into British Railways green, although this never was lined out as was the original intention. If there is/was such a feeling over the liveries carried by the PDSR fleet, surely this would have resulted in much positive comment and a healthy post bag saying well done. In reality apart from those who took a few photo's from the lineside it didn't really make any difference to the day to day running, and eventually the loco's reverted to the present house style.

 

Ws it publicised though, as people wont come if they don't know about it?

 

In 1993 there was a one day steam only gala on the August bank Holiday Monday. Six locomotives were in steam: 6435 (in authentic GWR plain green with shirtbutton emblem), 4555 (in plain green with Great Western on the tanks), 4588 (in British Railways lined green), 7827 Lydham manor (making its last runs prior to overhaul), 4920 Dumbleton Hall (in authentic Great Western lined green) and 60103 Flying Scotsman (in authentic British Railways lined green). The event featured the Hall and Manor double-heading the Torbay Express, 6435 on a two coach local set, various goods trains (including one hauled by 60103) and the pairing of both 45's (something still quite rare in preservation back then). Costs were more than running the standrard two-train service with two loco's, yet takings were not that much better than a normal day. In reality several enthusiasts came out to photograph the event, but not enough travelled. At the time the line was also running several succesfull gala's that featured mostly diesel traction. In contrast takings for these were often much better with many more modern image enthusiasts travelling instead of linesiding. Had the steam event been better supported I am sure other similar events would have followed.

 

Greenway I can not see where I said no local enthusiasts use the railway. I just said more would (this is a fact as I know at least some!) visit the railway more often if it was more authenthic.

My comment about telegraph poles and Brit halt were just wishful thinking (as it said in my post!). Just a shame they were taken out in the first place as I believe the railway also tried to do with original station at Kingswear a few years ago...

The railway is obviously succesful at what it does but in these difficult times perhaps they could attract a few more punters for very little effort.

 

To go back a few posts, I think comparing it to the Mid Hants, GCR, GWSR etc is a bit unfair as it doesn't take geography into account, the others being closer to London and the centre of the country, thus more easily reachable by more people.

From a personal point of view, I'm planning to make my first visit this year (nothing like holiday planning to get you through dark, freezing January) and I can't say authenticity is a key factor (though I accept it is for others).
I want to see whatever's on the Torbay Express (fingers crossed for King Eddie!) and Lydham Manor. (Is the latter currently running by the way? I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere in the chain but come on, 36 pages! Throw me a frickin' bone here!)