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Peak Rail Annual Report and Action Group

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by huochemi, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    A couple of points now I've been able to read the pdf. Riverside - I understand we can't abandon it as if NR want to use their bit for any reason then we have to give way to them, without Riverside the alternative is just to run to Darley Dale, although you could run near to Matlock then reverse to make it more interesting for the punters, as was done with 4472's visit. Also I understand that at the DWVRT agm the attendees were told they hadn't given up on the down building but the council is looking to sell it - that could be to PR if funds available, or to a suitable purchaser.

    I agree the way Matlock was done was incorrect, perhaps improving platform 2 was cheaper at the time than building platform 3 but it's costing us dear now. NR wanted a horrendous amount just to move a sign, let alone change pointwork. If it's ever going to be remodelled it needs a big hitter in the preservation world, someone like Pete Waterman to negotiate with NR, oh hang on he's on the opposing side...

    Just a silly thought, if platform 3 was built and connected to platform 2 would it be the longest in preservation, I know there are some lengthy ones out there?

    Dave
     
  2. sleepermonster

    sleepermonster Member

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  3. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    As I have said in a previous post I have visited PR three times in the last ten years each time a holiday with my wife and our dogs all over the wonderful Peak district, in that ten years the PR seems to have been stuck in a time warp, living in the south of England I visit the other railways on a regular bases Swanage, Mid-Hants, Bluebell on each visit I can see progress being made in some way or another, but when I visit the PR it still looks the same each time, even my wife commented on our last visit "not much changed here has it"
     
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  4. Midlandsouthern

    Midlandsouthern New Member

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    It was a interesting certainly sets out an intial plan for memebers volunteers etc, to consider. With matlock riverside couldnt you remove it and realign the track and new platform on a smoother alignment, less tight curves if it was to be kept, would the recently built box need to be moved, so it could control trains in matlock area.
    Does DWVRT/ PRA has the funds to buy it if it goes on open market, be good to control whole station?
    This propectus does give an intial what we going to start with doing. And acknowlegdes well the need to promote not just the railway but all the groups and associations, so its beneficial to all,
     
  5. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Coming late to this thread I just don't believe that to be true - and I visited in Buxton, and then multiple times in the last 10 years to the current set-up.

    When I was a youngster, visiting my grandparents near Ashbourne in the 1980s, I used to read Steam in the Peak or whatever the magazine was (is?) called and it did seem to me (coming from Kidderminster) that here was a true sleeping giant that was about to kick on and join the ranks of the best in the country.

    For whatever reason it just hasn't happened.

    You can say all the same things you've said above for the Northampton and Lamport, including freight probably (and when they got going there was still track down all the way from Northampton to Market Harborough), and it hasn't happened there either. Actually in my fantasy alternate history *that* would be a cracking premier league line.

    Scenery's debatable - I'd go with about par FWIW; location is no better really; facilities on paper yes but only one line is winning currently in reality as opposed to on paper; double track yes that's one for PR; commercial traffic? I genuinely believe that that might be the kiss of death for the preservation side of things rather than the silver bullet.

    Which just leaves the SVR ahead on loco stud, rolling stock, station ephemera, undercover storage, membership, etc.

    None of that is because the SVR is in any way God's gift to preservation. Not at all. But for whatever reason the cards have fallen their way, and fallen their way consistently, for 50 years now. Peak Rail is still (very sadly) the big what if...?

    I wish everyone working for the best at PR all the best - I'm closer to the C&PR these days precisely because there's more still to do whereas the SVR is care and maintenance/polishing the set-up - so I'm totally aware of the challenges of the smaller set-ups these days and not just seeing it from the vantage point of the premier league.

    I'll continue to visit PR, and hope for the best for everyone involved. But I genuinely think the days when it had "more potential than the SVR" are long gone. I also believe that they did happen though. Rewind 30-40 years and it was all more than plausible.
     
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  6. Vulcan Works

    Vulcan Works Member

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    I'm not sure the Peak District National Park Board would entirely agree with your scenery comparison!

    The Severn Valley is a fine railway and it has become a tourist attraction and a vital part of the local economy after many years of hard work and helping the cards to fall the right way. PR has the advantage over many railways by already being in a honey trap location; end to end and along the route there is something of interest. Plus the bonus of a popular cycling network and several potential park and ride schemes. Parts of the Peak District are already closed to traffic at busy times and it can be bumper to bumper at Buxton, Bakewell and Matlock. In my alternative PR fantasy we should now be having a debate about running 2 or 3 train services and still not having enough capacity!

    I agree that a commercial freight enterprise with PR at best a (very) junior partner is fraught with danger. It would be a different matter if we already had a strong foothold in the National Park as a well respected heritage railway, freight might then be a lucrative supplementary income (I say might because of the cost of excessive infrastructure wear and tear caused by stone trains).

    At least PRAG does have a Vision compared to the current regime's wasted years.
     
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  7. JayDee

    JayDee Member

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    Meanwhile, in the same fantasy universe, a railtour operator and the HST group are eyeing up a cascaded 125 set and debating reviving the Midland Pullman...
     
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  8. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    The view of the Peak District National Park Board regarding scenery comparisons is pretty much irrelevant though as they are not the passengers or the volunteers or the funders
     
  9. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    The late Cecil J Allen knew a thing or two about rail travel, this is what he wrote after a run in the cab of Peak D101 from Manchester Central to Derby in 1962:
    "Never before had I traveled through the Peak District at the 'front end' and I found the experience most impressive, between the towering cliffs, through the succession of tunnels, and later on a high mountain shelf above the river - the nearest approach that I have known in this country to the impressions of Swiss footplate travel"
    People care about the Peak Line, and it shows in the ongoing debate.
    Dave
     
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  10. JayDee

    JayDee Member

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    So, picking through the last time DCC looked at this they were predicting some 700,000 passengers by 2040, and considering usually these predictions are low ball figures, it's slightly scary to think there's so much untapped potential amongst the peaks.
     
  11. kestreleyes

    kestreleyes Well-Known Member

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    the Earliest paperwork regarding Matlock between BR and PR refers to using engine release as the operational method and that was always due to the tightconstraints of land issuesand the problem of signalling the connection, an end on station was desired and Railtrackpropsed a side by side run round loop between the And PR which would have a seen fourtracksin the area,that was dropped during constantly revised design changes with the bypass,bus station and rail connection problems, the bus station was supposed to have been a driven in and out affairbut buses have to reverse before backing out, the bypassbridge endedup being altered to suit ammended flooddesigns at least once andeven thePR track plan ended up with 42 versions which Arthur’s redrew by hand,even the final positioning of the at RIverside was tohave been on the other side to ease the alignment but ended up being where it is due to last minute agreementswith FOC issues,in fact in the original plans no box was intended until Hmri desired a control person on site to oversee the ground frames either end, now if you look at the neighbouring Ecclesbourne who usethree personstooperate their loopat shottleyou can see why havngbone boxand one personin the long run is better than keeping seperate ground frames andstaff on thefloor even I feel it does appear easier.

    The best option would have been a seperate platform end on toNR but again there were proposals and issues withevenRailtracks proposals who did propose a seperate run round side by side, if there was agreement between the council and Sainsbury’s andNR/ORR you could build a platform on either the buddleia area outside the store or on the carpark side but that would require realigning the whole loop area too,at your cost,and you still have the issue of if you can’t put your loop sideby side next to your platform then you have to propel stock on the Nr land anyway which removes the whole point of the original plan anyhow,the option of a dedicated push pull affair which il not get into as that can can fill pages of discussions on fors and againsts on forums and would be interesting to see it go through the legalities as it could benefit other lines too.

    As with usual, if it can be answered il try, if not find a golden goose and get it laying eggs quick and wel all be on a winner
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  12. T'Bogger

    T'Bogger New Member

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    @kestreleyes Thanks for the background. :)

    So I have a question: Would it be possible to flip the point arrangement around that is currently located at the north end of Matlock platform, extend the 'Peak Rail' platform up to the Sainsbury's road access bridge and use the current loop as the run round loop for Peak Rail trains, providing there is suitable catchpoint/interlocking protection between East Midlands Trains and Peak Rail? Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  13. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve never been to Peak Rail despite growing up in the next county; but I had a look at the present track layout on Google and the PRAG proposal and neither strikes me as ideal, but I would have thought loco swaps would not be a big problem IF the ultimate aim was still to get to Buxton. Even on a shorter run you could run round at Riverside and have a diesel drag to Matlock, if the will was there. I can see why the desire is to reduce loco costs and staff levels in the short term, but building a complete new plarform is an expensive way to go about it.

    If it was anything to do with me I’d be looking to put in a connection at the south end and running round in the NR platform. Sure, there would be a myriad of hoops to jump through but I reckon it could be done in a way that satisfies everyone. Designed properly you might not even need to fit PR locos with all of the modern NR gubbins.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    Work out the cost of getting all their loco crew a network rail PTS for starters, and you'll soon see why they've not gone down that particular road!
     
  15. kestreleyes

    kestreleyes Well-Known Member

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    That was thought of too, but cost of altering both the interlocking and changing the controls around was not economical, having been involved in the discusssions and proposals it would be worth looking at the related rail engineer articles on “making the connection” il Have to find a link

    The main problem as obviously mentioned is cash, then if a foc or toc has issues with your plan assimple as it is then you will get stuck in talks forever stalling progress, ironically someone above mentioned NR gubbins ,indeed when the works to build the bypass started it was proposed by NR that temporary tpws would have to be fitted for the few weeks duration of the initial works, that was disscussed out the equation as not required and that cost removed, it would only have benefitted NR anyway

    PTS indeed, I know colleagues in the industry have been trying to get something more aligned to the building industry competency site cards for years so outside parties can comeon stream in line with pts but it remains just a dream
     
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  16. T'Bogger

    T'Bogger New Member

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    @kestreleyes Thanks for your reply. Would be good to see the article.

    So I guess what you’re saying is that the arrangement is technically possible, its just down to the cost to make the change and getting the buy in from the stakeholders, such as the Train Operating Company and Network Rail.

    I must admit such an arrangement would surely have benefits from their perspective as they would not have heritage trains (with potentially people leaning out of them) adjacent their trains and therefore reducing risk for them.
     
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    As I see it there are six paths available, some represent short term solutions and others a very long term view. IMO they all work only if there is a change in management.

    I) hiring in locos. Obvious problem with the current management no one in their right mind would let their locos near the line.

    Ii) getting the Waterman owned locos running. However, one has to be sceptical about their restoration as great things have been promised but nothing seems to have happened.

    Iii) investing in locos in relatively good condition when they become available ie such as George Stephenson. The problem is lack of reserves for such purposes due to current management. Potentially look into upcycling and lines where changing traffic needs means stock is surplus to requirements ie Swanage selling their 108.

    Iv) take on basket cases that need a lot of work - of course increased costs, no guarantee owners would sell ie binbrook crab. Management would need to show they are capable of managing such projects. Won’t be available any time soon.

    V) looking to attract locos that are low down the overhaul queue on other railways with a view to restore and run, making facilities available for owning groups etc to overhaul their locos.

    Vi) New build - pick a suitable loco that is closely associated with the line and has appeal. A 2P or a new build midland Pullman, take your pick. Obviously long term projects requiring significant investment and supporters would need to have confidence in the management to deliver.

    With regard to coaching stock, I tend to think there is enough around but obviously, as demands grow and supplies reduce, the coaches will be basket cases rather than bought for a fiver from BR who were using it up until yesterday. It’ll be coaches that spent 10 years in a siding at x,y,z. So again, more costs, slower to come online.

    As an addition what happened to the DDNGR? Wikipedia says it is closed and the link is dead on the peak rail website.
     
  18. JayDee

    JayDee Member

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    The chap who owned it (it was mostly a one man band affair) got into a spat with Peak Rail management when he fell ill and was taken to court, then ordered to quit the site. Something he was not in a state to do due to severe illness.

    The Ashover Light Railway Society was originally expected (mostly by the owner of the DDNGR) to run his operation or join him (it's not clear in the Narrow Gauge World issue that talks about all this) but the ALRS is very much its own affair and has plans for the Over the Rainbow cafe among other things. Something which would fit well into the PRAG vision, namely expansion of catering and other "secondary spend" ideas to raise funds.

    The gentleman who owned all of it has now passed away, last I heard, so the matter is up to his estate so far as I am aware.
     
  19. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Thanks, it captures the mess that is peak rail in a single case and shows how and why pr has been surpassed. (Just thinking about the narrow guage at say the GWR as an example of a line with narrow guage that has worked and it an attraction in its own right).
     
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  20. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    Another spat with the Peak Rail management? That makes 4, according to events outlined on this forum.
     
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