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Pennine Explorer 22/05/21 60163 Tornado

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Groks212, May 12, 2021.

  1. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Put this in the CME thread but it fits better here.

    Been looking back at what turned out to be the best southbound S&C run we did behind 60163 with 13 up. It goes back almost 11 years to the Border Raider of 24th June 2010. I wasn't such a serious timer in those days and we were on the 'wrong side' from Carlisle so I only I have some landmarks and stations of what was a seriously impressive run:

    From rest at Appleby: Ormside Viaduct, 275 30c, 4m 05.53s, 61:
    Helm Tunnel, 273 3/4, 5m 56.28s, 56;
    Tunnel out, 20 onto tsr:
    Crosby Garrett Viaduct, 269 1/2, 8m 38.84s, 36;
    Smardale Viaduct, 268 3/4, 11m 46.08s, 52;
    Kirkby Stephen, 266 47c, 15m 00.91s, 50;
    Birkett Tunnel, 264 1/2, 17m 24.36s, 47;
    Ais Gill Viaduct, 260 54c, 21m 56.46s, 51;
    Ais Gill Summit Board, 259 3/4, 23m 00.68s, 53.

    The tsr after Helm Tunnel had ruined the runs for a long time and I hadn't even considered the possibility of such a rapid run happening or I would have found a window to time from.

    So not really a surprise 60163 was able produce the run on Saturday with a 57 mph pass of Appleby.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
  2. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Not a record but does anybody know what the fastest blue ribbon time actually is, which loco and when? 16: 28 is the time put forward for Saturday but without supporting data. The run with 46229 in January 1984 was 17:43 but this was from Ormside to Ais Gill so slightly shorter than from MP 275. Saturday cant be considered anyway as it wasn't from a start at Appleby but it would be good to know if it was the absolute fastest time. Thanks. Don
     
  3. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    Table available here: https://settlecarlislesteam.co.uk/the-blue-riband

    16:14 for the current record by 46229 on 14th August 1993.

    The one you mention; 07/01/1984 was 17:56 for the Blue Riband section.

    Most of this comes from @46203 's Lineside to footplate book and are Mike Notley's data.
     
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  4. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Thats really great thanks. Don
     
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  5. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    The question I keep wondering is, what category does Tornado's effort fall into? The current record (unless beaten since) for load 13 is 17:51 by 71000 on 21/10/2006. However, that was a standing start from Appleby. Tornado's time clearly beats 17:51 if 16:28 turns out to be correct, but I don't think it can take that crown without the Appleby stop. A new crown to be made perhaps?
     
  6. 46203

    46203 Member

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    60009 covered the Blue Riband section in 15.42 minutes on 16November 1991 passing the summit at 59mph. As it only had a load of 8coaches (325 tons), it was deemed outside the competition parameters.
    On 31st July 1993 Gresley matched 46229’s time of 6.14 minutes with 10 coaches (385 tons), speed at the summit 53mph.

    edit: I see Ian has covered it.
     
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  7. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    And if we're allowed a bit of fun, on 13/6/64, 35012 and Driver Hooker, Fireman Seaby did it in 15' 37'' from MP275 to the Summit Board with nine on. That was non-stop through Appleby and 73 at Ormside.

    The time from Carlisle to Settle Jct was 83' 40'' but with a signal check at Culgaith and a long tsr at Kirkby Thore, and of course no special restriction over the viaduct and speeds of 80 going down the hill.
     
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  8. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    Thanks, interesting context. What was the fastest scheduled steam-hauled train over the S&C in the 60s? Presumably they were non-stop, picking up water from troughs (at Garsdale?)
     
  9. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Southern didn’t have troughs, so none of their engines had a scoop, you’d have to stop and put the bag in.
     
  10. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Towards the end of steam on SR the steam operation was water at Southampton on the down services from Waterloo which is 79.5 miles from Waterloo; adding around 10miles for running around and exit from Nine Elms gives around 90 miles in one tender fill. given that the S&C is only 72 miles in length this suggests that any reasonable locomotive with a 5000 gallon tender should be able to do Carlisle - Hellifield without stopping. IIRC Network Rail currently allows 72 miles between water stops except under exceptional conditions.
     
  11. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    More than once a Merchant Navy ran non stop Waterloo to Yeovil Junction with no booked stop which is 118 miles and with water to spare including some very fast running up to 90 mph
     
  12. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    I know that. The Southern is my patch ;-) I was asking about the scheduled services over the S&C in the 60s - "The Thames Clyde Express" and similar. Were times of 84 minutes Carlisle - Settle Jn commonplace or was Mr Hooker's excursion exceptional for the day? How do 1960s schedules compare with today's charter timings?
     
  13. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    And that caused lots of debate with Mike over the years. Load 12 was most often the load on CMEs. Mike and others agreed MP275 to Ais Gill Summit from a Standing Start for the Blue Riband to allow pacifics that slip the 3/4m 440f, bit of level then the mile of 176f to get to 60 by mp275. Seemed to be a good theory and more often than not worked. It certainly made for many entertaining attempts on the record over the years. I can't find a non-stop run in my timing books going back from 2010 to 1996 so far.

    If you look at the difference between Tornado's runs of last Saturday and 24th June 2010, there's a fair chance after blasting through Appleby at 57, 60163 would undoubtedly have hit 60 on the 440f /176f to mp275. Best guess is that time from MP277 1/4 to MP275 would have been close to 2m 31s (58 mph average). From a standing start it took near enough 4m 06s on the 24th June to get to Ormside Viaduct. Speed was 61 so it would have taken close to 20s more to reach mp275, taking the time from rest to 4m 26s. So a real time loss of 1m 55s after a standing start, both days being dry with load 13. Quite significant if the Blue Riband had been timed from the Station.

    But as it isn't, and the track speed limit is 60, and if trains hit 60 at mp275 they become equal and Tornado's run last Saturday should be acknowledged as the fastest with 13 logically.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
  14. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I have got a winter 1960 Bradshaw in the attic, will dig it out. My guess is that only the night trains were non stop, but we shall see.

    Meanwhile, here's another run from the 1960s specials. This is from Brian Basterfield's website. 91 mins non stop from Carlisle to Settle Jct (pass) with eleven on and of course no restriction at Ribblehead. The other runs I looked at from that era were either ruined by tsrs and signals or there was incomplete info. I think it can safely be said that the Hooker/Seaby run was exceptional.

    https://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition17/46255lds.htm

    Edit : found the winter 59/60 timetable. One of the night trains was non-stop Carlisle to Skipton in 115 mins, so, say 97 mins to Settle Jn. The Thames-Clyde was non-stop Carlisle to Leeds in 136 mins, so, say 90 mins to Settle Jn. The Waverley had a call at Appleby and was scheduled in 90 mins to Hellifield with a stop, say 87 mins to Settle Jn.

    I presume the Thames-Clyde and Waverley were booked for some maximum tonnage (say 300).
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
  15. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    As the Carlisle-Settle Jn time has been quoted as a probable preservation record of 89 mins, presumably off RTT?, I had a look back at the timings for the 16/9/17. That day Tornado took 93m 38.41s; 58.5 through Appleby, but lost a lot of time over the Blue Riband section, 21m 19.81s cf 16m 28s.
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    23.5 minutes that day from Appleby to Ais Gill and with a heavy 13 coaches compared with almost certainly a lighter 13 the other day that it covered in about 20 minutes. But then there is the fact that we know in 2017 Tornado hit the climb at 63 whereas the starting speed for the climb the other day could make a considerable difference.

    It's interesting to speculate. All we know is that it was a climb amongst the best but not atypical of Tornado when pushed and in 2017 it wasn't really pushed. What we do know is that when Tornado was first on the main line the A1ST was out to challenge everything - e.g. the Top Gear trip out of Berwick to Grantshouse - so 24/6/10 was also one of those occasions and worth thinking again about.

    Don't forget on that day in 2010 we ran from Preston to Carlisle well inside even time with 43 over Shap. And the time of 23 min starting from Appleby to Ais Gill is not a million miles away from the 20 or so, pass to pass on the run we are talking about.

    So I conclude that Tornado was pushed in 2010 and it was also pushed the other day with similar outcomes. Pretty consistent therefore.
     
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Translation: on both occasions somebody did a lot of shovelling.
     
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  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair enough, I shall retire back to my shell :)
     
  19. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Also don’t forget that some runs in the 1980s started from the watering point at the milk depot at Appleby which gave them 0.45 mile less to get up to speed. This particularly affected the runs in early 1984
     
  20. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    The thread reminds me of long and oft heated discussions over more than a few beers about the Blue Riband in various pubs in Cumbria over the years. Such joy!!
     

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