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Practical Issues in Preserving Steam Locomotives

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Martin Perry, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    I would agree that often the greatest educational value a loco can have is to be working and demonstrating what it was made for. Seeing an A4 at 75 on the ECML surely shows us a lot more in some ways than sitting cold in a museum.

    However, I don't think you can write off the historical value of the engineering itself. Mallard has been rebuilt over the years and lots of parts have been replaced, but I think it's important that there are bits there that have gone at 126mph too. I don't know if it's original, but I love the idea of grabbing the regulator handle and knowing that it's what Joe Duddington used. If that has to be replaced we'd not have that any more.

    During the overhaul of 541 at the Bluebell one of the firebox corners has been replaced as it was shrapnel damaged during the war and patched. There's no argument that it was necessary to replace it, but there's still a fascinating story that can tell. Even just seeing scriber marks or the number stamps on components tells a story. And once it's gone it's gone...

    I would honestly give a toe to see Gladstone working again, and I think there is an argument that educationally we'd find out more about it by putting a fire in it. But I can completely see that we'd lose material of historical value too. As an example of how Brighton Works overhauled an engine in the 30s, it's pretty priceless. On balance, if I won the lottery I'd be on the phone to Anthony Coulls to ask where to send the cheque to, but I do understand why he might say no!


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  2. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Engineering methods of doing things do change over the years and there is a danger of losing these if we are not careful. For instance, today we would naturally use a PTFE/graphite based material for joints and glands. Not that long ago, these things were catered for by using asbestos. What did the early Victorians use for their joints and glands? It certainly wasn't asbestos. Glands would probably be made with hemp and joints with copper gauze and white lead. Both these things cannot practically be seen in a stuffed and mounted loco, nor in an operational one, for that matter but it is important. If, in putting an old loco into steam, we perpetuate the latter, we are preserving the history of both what was used and how it was done, which is something that can easily be lost. I don't have a problem with replacing like for like.
    I do get the point about touching the regulator handle that Jim Duddington was holding when Mallard hit 126, though. When I'm sat in the cab of 60007, I often think that I'm sat in the seat once occupied by Bill Hoole (even though it has been re-upholstered!).
     
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  3. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

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    Ok you got me with the regulator handle. One of the reasons I paid for a Driver Experience on Britannia was to hold the same regulator* my father did some 55 years earlier. Its a pity I only got it up to a 5th speed he used to tho!

    *assumption being its possibly the only original part.
     
  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Perhaps there is a distinction here. Preservation for static exhibition will obviously involve cosmetic restoration and subject to any H&S issues, all parts would remain extant. Some might even be missing if not visible. And even in that state there is something evocative in, for example, seeing a locomotive that was around 100+ years ago if for no other reason than to try and understand how the technology and operating conditions have changed and get a sense of development over time. But when a locomotive is being brought back to a fully operational state, and then in the case of main line running, having to run at speed for sustained periods, it's difficult not to see the sense in using whatever techniques are now known. That should include modifications if there is an obvious benefit. It strikes me that a practical obstacle can be the absence of any patterns or drawings when components may have to be worked up from scratch. The older the locomotive, the greater the potential for such difficulties I guess.

    I personally think that the current restoration of 32424 Beachy Head will stand out as one of the most remarkable projects of recent years given that the starting point was by no means all of the main component parts. And I like the symbolic fact that she will carry her original regulator handle for all the reasons already alluded to.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think sometimes the assumption that components get replaced is overdone. Clearly, some items are in essence "consumables", right up to the level of fireboxes and cylinders. But other items do have a longevity, and don't necessarily swap between locos either.

    As an example, on "Fenchurch", the original cylinders were changed within about 18 months of construction, on account of a casting flaw, and clearly there have been subsequent replacements since then. The boiler has also clearly changed when the loco was rebuilt as an A1x.

    But other items are clearly original 1872 components. For example, the water tanks must date from then, as they still have the blanking plates for the steam balance pipe that ran immediately in front of the cab, a feature which was only fitted to the first six locos and lasted a very short time in service. (So almost certainly the tanks are original components from Fenchurch, but conceivably from one of the other original six locos). Similarly, the lower part of the cab was replaced by BR in 1962, but the upper part is original LBSCR, as evidenced by a blanked-off small circular cut-out that was used in connection with the LBSCR passenger communication device. Other parts (including two of the three wheel sets, the buffer beam, the frames) etc also show evidence of being very old, if not original.

    So while it is clear that many components on a locomotive do change over time on the "grandfather's axe" principle, it is be no means true that all of them do: only a careful study can reveal what is likely to be original, and what is likely to be replacement.

    Steve's point about workshop practice is also germane. To take another Stroudley example - not only is "Gladstone" an assemblage of genuine Stroudley-era components, which were assembled by the SR in the 1920s when the restoration took place (and clearly, some components came from locos other than Gladstone itself: at the time, replication of Stroudley condition had a higher premium than restoration of the loco as it was in 1927, when it had a Marsh boiler etc). But additionally, the work was carried out by staff who had all started their careers under Stroudley, as far as possible trying to replicate the techniques, methods and finishes he had used. As such, it is a time capsule of Victorian workshop practice, not just in form but in detail.

    Sometimes a close eye teaches you interesting things. When we salvaged components from some LBSCR workers's cottages that were being dismantled at Haywards Heath a few years ago, not only were we able to get a good, un-faded paint sample of the colour the windows would originally have been painted in ca. 1850, but we could also show that the sash windows had been pre-fabricated and painted off site - maybe within the company's C&W workshop? - and then simply inserted into the cottages as they were built: they hadn't been constructed in situ.

    Tom
     
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  6. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I agree that 32424 Beachy Head is a remarkable project and can't wait to see it working but it is not a restoration, it is a new-build. The original 32424 ceased to exist, for ever, when it was scrapped.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It's semantics I guess - I wonder if Big Al was being slightly tongue in cheek? I think I'd call it a "new build incorporating significant original components" (though only the regulator handle specifically from 32424, spiritually significant though that is). Rather like the broad gauge "North Star" or the Braithwaite and Ericsson "Novelty" replica. Even Tornado, so I understand, has an original LNER tender underframe, doesn't it?

    Tom
     
  8. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I was being a bit tongue in cheek too, but I do think it is a bit daft to claim as a restoration for something which is essentially brand new. Getting back to the important question of semantics a regulator handle may be original but is it significant? :) No-one has ever suggested that Tornado is anything but a new-build even though it contains a few recycled components.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Objectively? No. Sentimentally? Yes ...

    However, with reference 32424, the "significant components" I was thinking of were the boiler, tender under frame, tender wheels etc - albeit none of those are from the original Beachy Head, or even from an original LBSCR H2.

    Tom
     
  10. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Indeed these are significant components none of which came from 32424 or an H2. Therefore it cannot possibly be a restoration. I hope the Bluebell will celebrate that it is a new build and a remarkable achievement.
     
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    This sounds like a semantics conversation along the lines of the differences between a rebuild, restoration, reconstruction, replica and new build. Those that care will be particular to use the correct word. OK - Beachy Head will have bits of a B4, C2x and GN 4-4-2 in it. I think the term used for BH is reconstruction but TBH I don't care. The Bluebell is bringing to life something that should never have gone but its passing was just a little too early for the world to realise what it was about to lose. Happily that is being put right.
     
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  12. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    To me, it dont matter if a loco is original, a rebuild or new build, take Tornado, it looks like a A1, i had never heard an original A1, but i expect it sounds like one, and goes like one, it steams and it works, thats what counts when you restore an engine how much is renewed? so i should imagine a lot of original metal is lost, but would you put back say a rusted through cab side sheet, no you wouldnt , so i hope one day to stand and admire a new built 32424, would i have liked it any more, if it was the original engine, no.
     
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I like the way that if you catch the light right looking at 9017 you can still see where the round over smokebox windows were blocked up on 3282 back in the 20s.
     
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  14. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I agree Tornado is a real A1 and the new Beachy Head will be a real H2. New-builds are real locomotives after all. They just don't have any pre-preservation history.

    These distinctions may not matter to most people or to many heritage railways or loco operators. But they should matter to any organisation that calls itself a Museum and any person who cares about historical accuracy. Historical details are just as important as engineering ones. The history of engineering details is, in itself, fascinating e.g. Tom's account above of the original bits left on Fenchurch.
     
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  15. Jonno854

    Jonno854 New Member

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    I'm not particularly fussed whether it's an original H2 or not, from the front coach the original and a replica should sound exactly the same!
     
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  16. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    D'oh! Good point, I had forgotten about that. Yes, now you mention it, I remember an old article in one of the rail mags saying that Lode Star was stripped of asbestos some years ago. But if asbestos degrades then I guess it would have had to come out sooner or later anyway - so it all comes back to that idea of "managing change". (IIRC, the article also said that the engine was very carefully photographed during the work to make sure that the boiler cladding etc. went back exactly as it had been!)

    City of Birmingham is an interesting conundrum. I suppose she, too, will need to be stripped eventually but I can't imagine it would be an easy task to strip her down in situ in Thinktank. But on the other hand, AFAIK the Thinktank building was not designed to allow her to be easily removed. I hate to be critical but that's not great planning!
     
  17. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I agree. I'm not bothered either so long as no-one tries to claim it is something which it is not.
     
  18. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    We've got Messerschmitt 109s running around on Merlins... including one or two that actually did originally have DBs. One recent conversion has been adapted so it can run either Merlin or DB. There are racing Mustangs with Griffons too... and let's not even go into the complexities of the original vs Flug Werk 190s and their respective engines!
     
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  19. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    Also, coming at this from the perspective of someone who has spent a fair chunk of his life around and working on historic musical instruments (mainly organs)... I've got a highly original 1917 Bösendorfer grand piano. It retains all of the original action, most of the original ivories, even the bulk of the original key-bushings... but it receives all necessary maintenance, perished bushings have been replaced, it's been re-pegged, re-strung and re-polished, it still gets tuned every so often (the more it gets used, the better it holds tune! It recently went 2 years without tuning and just sagged uniformly from A=440Hz to about 435Hz), it works for a living and inspires everyone from 5-year-old beginners to highly advanced adults. It has one purpose, and one purpose alone. The same goes for a violin by Amati, Stradivari or del Gesu. They may be priceless historical artefacts, but until someone suitably skilled puts horsehair to gut, they're just old wooden ornaments. There's a delicate balance to be struck between originality (where extant) and modernisation with organs too - but nobody would DREAM of suggesting you retain the original leatherwork put in by Father Willis or Aristide Cavaillé-Coll in 1875, because leather has a finite life and the organ simply will not hold wind... so that which needs repair or renewing gets it, in order to keep the machine alive and breathing. Some people choose a more radical modernisation, replacing old pneumatic actions with modern electromagnetic solenoids etc, or ripping out original 1930s relays to replace them with modern digital multiplex systems, renewing large parts of the timber fabric, carrying out tonal alterations to the voicing or even the general specification, but this is generally not a good idea unless you're dealing with a second-rate instrument in need of improvement. Personally, I do not see Lode Star much differently to the long-unplayable Cavaillé-Coll in St Nicholas, Ghent, or the derelict Fr Willis in St Dunstan's Edge Hill, Liverpool... albeit Lode Star is arguably in better nick than the Willis, at least its custodians care about it! However, the common thread is, cold and silent, they tell us the square root of naff all... only once you have the sound (and, in the case of a steam loco, the smells and sights) does it start to inspire and educate people.
     
  20. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    Material replaced doesn't have to be lost. If Green Arrow's monobloc cylinder were to be replaced, the original could be sectioned and put on display. It would make a very interesting exhibit.
     

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