Pre-Nationalisation Coach Restorations, ex-End of the Line thread

We are talking about heritage lines - surely it is good to have carriages that, once restored, don't necessarily have to be used for the everyday services but can be brought out on special occasions. As the queue awaiting restoration gets worked through we'll see more varieties and permutations of stock emerging. It would be a sad state of affairs if we only had Mk 1 stock as the predominant coaches on most of our railways. Pree-BR stock is what sets the top lines apart from the rest (sorry if you are a GWSR/GC/ELR supporter, but that's my view.!

 

Yep, sadly I agree with you, wish we could have something more interesting than MK 1s from time to time, but a) it's all we've really got now and b) anything else would take too long to restore for where we need to be coaching wise in the next few years Still, if the SVR have too many coaches I hear that GW2 isn't being used much, that could be a nice project for us, everyone take one home and work on it in their back garden for a while, bring back, job done...

 

Sory to disapoint but GW2 is getting a few more outings these days. I had GW2(6) on an Intermediate Footplate Experience train the other day, so they do get used. and are runners. C&W are catching up with the maintenance so our heritage fleet will posibly expand.

 

It's the same at the NYMR. We have a teak train but that doesn't mean we're going to stop restoring coaches. The LNERCA is separate from the NYMR's C & W Dept and its volunteers, so it would appear that what the GWSR lacks is a group of people who prefer to work on the GW stock. My personal standpoint is that I'm not interested in Mk 1s, so it isn't a case of diverting effort from maintaining the Mk 1 fleet as I wouldn't be doing that even if there were no Gresleys.

 

Fair enough, but there simply isn't any non Mk 1s on the GWSR any more, we're only just approaching a stage where that sort of restoration would be viable unfortunately. It's because we were a late starter, only started up in the 1980s, a decade too late really.

 

I was making a general point and talking of the SVR as the "family" of organisations only as an illustration, but your response points to other "elephant in the room" which few if any standard gauge lines are free of, the issue of ownership. There are many organisations/individuals that will never achieve what they set out to do, but their host railway is frequently powerless to intervene. Some consolidation of ownership would be beneficial I think.

 

In many ways the Southern, GW and LMS stock fared better than the LNER, which makes the relative numbers of LNER teak coaches now in use paradoxical. Most LNER general purpose stock went for scrap around 1963, apart from some buffet cars, and thus was lost before the preservation boom . Main line steam persisted longer on the Southern and so relatively more Maunsell and Bulleid stock lasted long enough to be saved as preservation gather pace. The LMS and GW representation was boosted by the retention of intact vehicles as test trains at Derby and Swindon, most of which went to either the SVR or the GWS, and the GW survivors were also boosted by examples from the WR control trains; there were no SR or LMS equivalents.

 

The SR had the equivalent of these trains but all these went into departmental stock as the Southern Reagan was loathed to use MK1 coaches for this purpose. and these still survive

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=491 complete
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=492 complete
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3206 underframe only
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2551 body only.

The LMR also existed and these survive are and are more or less complete.

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=674
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=706
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=711
http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=712

And on this page you will see one of the LMS coaches restored.https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/peak-rail-update-of-whats-occuring.21492/page-59

 

Back on the subject of how many coaches were saved from each railway company, I thought I'd have a stab at this seeing as I've been ill and off school - little did I know the task ahead! So far I've done the LMS, all figures from the VCT. In total it lists 306 items of stock from the LMS in preservation. After taking out the miscellaneous wagons, CCTs and those that ave been scrapped, it comes down to 157. After removing those of which there is only just a body or an underframe by itself it comes down to 132, so this is the number that theoretically, could be restored (although obviously some really are too far gone) Of those, 31 of those coaches are operating. This includes 3 stove vans, 10 special coaches (inspection saloons, sleepers, dynamometer cars etc.) 4 full brakes and the rest normal passenger carrying coaches. That comes in at a grand total of 14 LMS coaches that can reasonably be expected to be in use in normal passenger trains. GWR is a right pain as the pregrouping gwr ones have to be sorted out as well, so next up is the SR...

 

14 sounds a little low. I have a note from working L(9) - thats 9 LMS coaches. The consist was:-
26986 BK, 27218 TO, 24617 CK, 12992 TK, 149 Buffet, 26880 BTK, 2300 TK, 27270 TO and 27220 TO - tare 271t

With the diner in the VV set that makes 10 out of 14 on the SVR. Where are the other 4?

 

2 at Boness, 1 heavily modified at Peak rail (black with a veranda) and the one at NRM with the coronation stripes. Also one at strathspey, so either I counted wrong or one of the SVR's you've listed is no longer listed as in use on the VCT. I've had to take the "operational" at face value even though I've been skeptical about some of them.

SR is a lot easier, should be finished with that soon...

 

Its 149 that is shown as non operational on VCT. A bit of a misnomer really as it simply entered C&W for a wash and brush up and is back in service.

Edeit 7511 the diner is shown as non operational - well I had cooked breckie in it at theautumn gala

edit2 forgot the kings saloon - not operational as its tucked up warm and snug in the engine house. Problem the operational column yes/no does not diferentiate non op wreck and non op museum piece

 

The results for the SR are now in...

In total, the VCT threw up 352 items of rolling stock from the VCT. After the many GUVs, PYVYs, other vans/tanks and things that had been scrapped had been removed, 92 remained. removing those without ither a body or an underfram brought it to 78. Then all the operating ones counted up to 23. These comprise of 5 full brakes, 2 PMVYs adapted as coaches at the Middleton railway, 2 driving motor brakes which are apparently operational (?) and the rest bog standard passenger carrying, giving the SR a total of 14 normal passenger carrying coaches that could reasonably be expected to be in use. There were a number of Bulleids at Swanage that looked in fairly good nick but not listed as operational. So depending on whether the ones at Swanage are listed correctly, the LMS and SR seem pretty even. Next up, LNER...

 

Don't forget the pregrouping coaches We have 9 currently in service with 2 more to return shortly from heavy repairs.

 

Here's pedantic for you Gary! One of the 9 vehicles you refer to was actually built in 1924 although to a pre-Grouping design.

Paul H.

 

All right, all right! I'll come to them later, they really are a minefield, but hopefully quicker to do as there should be less. I suspect southern constituent companies will come out best, followed by pre-grouping GWR, no idea about LMS/LNER contituents.

The GWR coaches are a pain, I tried searching for all the coaches pre-1923 and post-1923 and they didn't add up to their own total... Not sure what to do about that...

 

Which one, I might have counted it depending on how it was listed on the VCT?

 

Are you counting pre-grouping? I think we have 4 Bulleids, 3 Maunsells, and four pre-grouping bogie coaches (two SECR, one LBSCR, one LSWR), plus three pre-grouping four wheelers in service. Though interestingly, one of the pre-grouping bogie carriages is probably/possibly SR built to SECR design, and three of the Bulleids are BR-built ...

Tom

 

I'm counting all the coaches listed as built by the SR on the VCT. It has thrown up a couple of pre-grouping designs, but not sure if all of them. I might get on to pre-grouping companies if I've still got some stamina!

 

There are 2 Bulleids available for traffic at Swanage, SOBT No.4365 and CK No.5761. Of the other Bulleids, No.1457 is, in the short term, planned to be conserved as a workshop pending restoration in the medium term, and the other SOBT, No.4366, is a longer term restoration job (it has an observation saloon in one end following military service and is a bigger task to rebuild).

Current projects for the heritage coach team are Maunsell TO's No's 1346 and 1381 (both away for contract overhaul at present), while other vehicles are either stored off site under cover, or stored (I think that's an appropriate term...) out of public sight. The exception is Maunsell No.2768 (I think that's the number), which was dismantled down to solebar level some years ago now to prevent the body collapsing.