Pre-Nationalisation Coach Restorations, ex-End of the Line thread

Thanks Rumpole, SR up to 16 then.

LNER has done very well indeed; despite a low starting number of 193 total listed. after pigion vans etc. had been removed it went down to 121, when ones without a body or underframe were removed the total was down to 85 and then total operating was 37, with 3 being the EMU cars, and 8 being full brakes/special coaches/converted coaches. So a total 26 LNER carriages can reasonably be expected to be carrying passengers.

I'll have another go at the GWR now...

 

That will be LBSCR designed 6349 built in 1924, by the way that is our newest coach

 

Did you include Thompson TK 1623 and gresley TK 3669 on the NYMR? Both are in the very final stages of restoration and should be in traffic next year.

 

No, if they aren't operating they they haven't been included.

Done a tot up for the post-grouping GWR, total items listed were 239, actual coaches were 112, after only bodies or under frames taken out still 112, actually operating comes in at a whopping 50, but only 19 are normal passenger coaches, with 24 being auto-trailers or saloons (the rest being full brakes/sleepers). Here's the table I constructed with the big four stats listed:

 

So for the working coaches,
GWR SDR, SVR and Didcot covers most,
LMS SVR covers most.
LNER SVR and NYMR covers most.
SR Bluebell Railway covers most.

With the LMS there are none I think from the first 20 years normal passenger coaches what are in use.

So if you take away the SVR there will be hardly no non BR coaches in use.

 

If you take away the SVR it's really the LMS coaches that suffer most, with only a couple of other examples. GWR fares surprisingly well with Didcot and SDR outnumbering the SVRs, SVR having 18 operational GWR coaches. SVR only has 7 operational LNER carriages out of a total of 26, so even without SVR GWR and LNER would still be better off than LMS currently! There are also a number of LNER carriages elsewhere in smaller numbers, a half decent amount at Boness and GCR.

Bluebell has 8 operational coaches out of the total 16 normal coaches so Bluebell probably own the majority of Southern coaches if you include pre-grouping ones as well I'd guess.

I do wonder why the LMS has fared so badly, the total unrestored with a body and underframe is the largest of the four, yet operating examples are few and far between. I think that is more to do with heritage railways than what was used on the mainline and when it went OOU. If the NYMR is to the LNER, and the Bluebell is to the SR, what would be to the LMS?

Another thing I noticed is Carnforth has a number of pretty significant coaches that seem to be seeing very little action and are gently rotting away

 

I think the IoWSR probably has more operational pre-grouping SR coaches than the Bluebell (i.e. ex-SECR, LBSCR, LSWR), though I suspect if you include our pre-grouping-non-SR ( - does that make sense?) carriages, it is probably more even, as in addition to our seven operational SECR / LBSCR / LSWR carriages, we also have four from the Metropolitan Railway, one from the GNR and reasonably imminently one from the LNWR.

At a push we could probably field about 22 operational non-Mark 1s in revenue-earning passenger-carrying service; the last time we had them all running on a single day was probably the opening day to East Grinstead, but it requires a big alignment of the stars / alignment of regular maintenance schedules to have them all operational simultaneously.

Tom

 

You're probably right there, I was think total number of SR + SR constituent coaches, if that makes any more sense? I'd forgotten about the other pre-grouping coaches on the Bluebell as well. I'd imagine that pre-grouping coaches should be easier, once all the bodies only/underframes only/other dead wood etc are out of the way I'd imagine that there are few coaches that have an underframe and body that aren't restored? Maybe this afternoon...

 

We have a siding full of them! <gloom>. Though the carriage shed fund is up to £358k Yay!

I think we have about 9 pre-grouping passenger-carrying carriages that are substantially complete (i.e body and original underframe) but currently unrestored, ranging from a 6-wheel LCDR brake 2nd through the 12 wheel LBSCR Director's Saloon to a LSWR vehicle rebuilt by the SR in the 1930s. There is a significant number of ex-SECR vehicles that could ultimately form a birdcage set.

Tom

 

Surprised me it was so few. One of them (a SECR 10 compartment third) was in revenue service until quite recently, and I think will probably enter the works for overhaul when the LNWR Obo comes out. The others haven't run for decades on the Bluebell, or haven't ever run.

Worth remembering that the KESR has several ex-SR pre-grouping carriages running.

Tom

 

Pre-grouping GWR has also fared quite well, maybe because it didn't really get absorbed in the grouping, just changed logo

 

There are some big pre-grouping companies that have done surprisingly badly in preservation. For example, the LSWR was the biggest constituent of the SR., but I believe the only operational LSWR carriage is 1520 on the Bluebell. Even worse off is the LNWR - the self-styled Premier Line currently has no operational carriages AFAIK, and for such a big line, relatively few preserved locos.

Tom

 

Yes I know, LSWR especially surprised me, as the others in the Southern did pretty well. maybe there is a lack of LNWR because the newly formed LMS had a midland bias?... Is the LNWR obs saloon the only operating LNWR coach to have survived in preservation?... I suppose I'll find out soon...

 

There's also the LNWR semi-royal saloon, but that is about it I think. The Obo is currently out of traffic but should return soon. I'm not sure about "Camilla" (the semi-royal) since she left the Bluebell. I think she is basically operational and I believe still up for sale.

Tom

 

There are many pre-grouping GWR coaches which aren't restored, as all 10 on the WSR are like this, with 6 out of the 9 at Didcot, The SVR, Bodmin and Pontypool Blaenavon are better with 50% as they only have 2 each. Both of the ones on SDR are working. Another 2 on the Swindon and Crickland and Cambrian Line which are not working. So there are I think 31 complete coaches with only 9 in use.

 

Close GWRman! Total pregrouping GWR vehicles found were 104, actual carriages 89, ones with a body and underframe 46, 11 of which are operating, 4 being "normal" and 7 being saloons/autotrailers etc.

LNWR has done better than expected, 62 vehicles found, 46 of whih are carriages. 25 have a body and underframe, and apparently 8 are operating, 3 "normal" and 5 specials (mostly royal). Having said that, I on't know how accurate it is, I've included the bluebell's as operating as that's what it is listed as despite knowing it isn't, as it isn't fair otherwise, and it'll be in service again soon anyway.

 

GWR constituents (GWR and cambrian only significant ones really) and LMS constituents:



LNWR has actually done better than MR despite the LMS being biased towards the MR. All significantly less I suspect than some of the southern ones. I have gone against the survey for the NSR as some of the bodies listed are of course now running - I thought 2 of them, with a 3rd being restored - is this correct?

 

This one is missing from your list http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=610 the sole surviving Maryport & Carlisle coach.

The NSR ones should be all shown as bodies only and not complete as listed, also there should be two to three more of these which aren't listed on the VCT site yet. https://www.national-preservation.c...-rolling-stock-trust.17401/page-5#post-980565 Where do the S&DJR come into this as will they be under the LMS or SR or a group of their own.

 

Thanks for the correction, I'll add that one. Yes all the NSR ones were bodies and listed as unoperational, but technically the bodies themselves are operational! So I think I'm going to leave them as is. S&D will come, currently doing LNER constituents, then Southern...

Edit - surely most stock for the S&D will be listed as built by other companies - either the LMS, SR, LSWR or MR?

 

The NSR ones should show under "Total without carriages without underframe or bodies" should be 0 as there are none complete left, but as you say 2 can be shown as operating.

The S&DJR carriages were built only for that line with most from outside contractors and in house, with some coming from the MR so this joint line with others might be best to do as a group.

Also to the LMS group should be NLR coaches as well.