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Premise: class 08 never built...

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Reading General, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I've always had a soft spot for Fowler's 2F dock shunters. Pity no-one with the requisite funds did when the last one went in 1964. (Image credited to Wikipedia)
    LMS_Fowler_Dock_Tank_47165_Fleetwood_08.58.jpg.cf.jpg
     
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  2. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    It seems that this class of tank engines has sink into oblivion?
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Unfortunately so. I suspect many lines would find one of these locos rather useful for off peak traffic these days.

    "Awww .... just look at those cute oval buffers!" :Bawling:
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Of course there's always 2 cyl good, 4 cyl better ;) ......
    M_NSR_23_SRA130126-L.jpg
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Didn't that one get rebuilt as a tender loco, with both incarnations being pretty short lived?
     
  6. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    Whilst agreeing with many of the comments above about the 15xx, in service they had limitations - high axle loadings and the short wheelbase (and outside cylinders?) making them "lively" at speed. I suspect that if the 08s hadn't appeared when they did then BR would have simply built (or have built for them) more of what they had and knew - Panniers, J72s, Jintys, Austerities, etc - if they actually needed to - probably the existing ones would have just not been scrapped as quickly. In the event, modernisation was going to happen, the 08s did what was necessary, and more conveniently/efficiently than steam, etc. If it hadn't been the 08, it would have soon been another sort of diesel shunter, and in similar quantities.

    Steve B
     
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  7. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    The 'jinty'. I remember David L Smith's description the GSWR men's reaction to them - 'something George Stephenson designed'. And it's hardly as if the GSWR was blessed with state of the art equipment in the 1920's.
     
  8. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, Steve. But the same argument could be said for the class 5. Why build a standard 5 when the LMS design does everything you want of a class 5?
    For that matter, why build the standard 8 when the last Duchess rolled off the production line circa 5 years earlier?
    For the same reason as the others, BR wanted a new set of modern locomotives of their own.
     
  9. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    71000 is very much the exception amongst the 999 locos built, as it's three cylinder but I suspect it was a bit if a vanity project built with the 46202 excuse. The LMS black 5 didn't do everything asked of it, it didn't have the Standard layout and fittings. I suppose the Ivatt black 5s could be regarded as a step towards the |Standard class 5
     
  10. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Weyhey! Not sure about shunting ability, I think the main idea behind it was supposed to be faster accelerating stop-start services. All good fun though!
     
  11. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    You do have to love wikipedia statements like that. After all outside cylinders and short wheelbase on an 0-6-0 pannier tank were such alien concepts to the GWR.
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm afraid that statement on Wikipedia is one of those enthusiast myths that seems to become true by repetition but without much in the way of documentary evidence. (FWIW, the author of that Wikipedia page simply asserts that to be the case, and offers no evidence).

    Think about it seriously - Swindon decides it needs a new shunting engine, and a bit of thought is put into all the ideal characteristics that such a loco should have. Do you think it might just be more likely that a short wheelbase, outside cylinder loco might present itself as an obvious solution quite independent of the existence of the USA tanks? There's only so many permutations of wheels, cylinders and valve gear that it is possible to come up with.

    Tom
     
  13. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I mean, saying 'they would just have built more Jintys (Jinties? Jintii?)' is the same as saying 'they would just have built more black 5s' which we know they did not, they redesigned everything to have a similar appearance, sets of fittings, layout etc.
     
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  14. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Re leaving diesels running. Agree with the comment thatthere were problems regarding battery capacity and starting.DMUs seemed to be significantly vulnerable. The other factor is that s diesel were not as turn the key and go as people think. On an 08 the day fuel tank is located above the engine and is gravity feed. The problem is that fuel needs to be pumped up into the day tank by hand pump. Also needing a hand pump is initial oil pressure. Before starting an 08 you have to manually pump up the oil pressure before engaging the starter
     
  15. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    If not for diesels there would have been a need for 1000+ shunters, probably 1500 or more. A standard loco for shunting purposes would be needed but also maybe a 1F loco for transfers etc, maybe in the role later filled (very nearly) by the class 14, what might that have looked like? Has to be light for places like the Forest of Dean and of course Standard
     
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  16. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I had another stab at it and based this one around the 15xx rather than the S100. The length, height, wheelsize/wheelbase etc is exactly the same. The cylinders are more inclined, though.

    EDIT. Stupid rookie mistake, I used a Std. 3 as a donor image which is far too big!

    BR-standard-shunter-3e.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  17. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Another interesting loco from you, thanks a lot! :)The very inclined cylinders is this regarding the narrow british loading gauge?

    Knut
     
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  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Prehaps the front of the tanks would've sloped, like the J50 or Urie's hump shunters to improve driver's forward vision? Would an electric headlight each end make life easier for crews at night? Or, for flexibility, dual braked and/or steam heating connections (for banana traffic or ECS heating)? Might duplicate controls be provided to permit LH or RH drive? .... and can I put in a plug for oval buffers? Jolly useful when shunting round corners.

    ..... and (being very picky, sorry) is that in mixed traffic lined black? Surely one would have had difficulty making out the crest and number through the inevitable grime, let alone lining! Maybe one lucky class member might even have received full lined passenger livery, due to being selected to haul a royal train on the last stretch to somewhere like Weymouth Quay? And if it was, you can bet that would be the one bagged for RCTS specials. Now there's a thought ....

    .... and here's another one .....

    Concerning Ivatt's class 4, I had a slight nightmare imagining a possible LMS predecessor of this beastie :Woot: ..... and now, coz one may not unthink something, you're going to have nightmares about it too. Why should I suffer alone!
     
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  19. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    Inside cylinder or not, for shunting work an Austerity in reality would knock the spots off anything else suggested on this thread - the coal board didn't standardize on a fleet of them for no reason.

    They are tough, powerful, free steaming, simple, and easy on the crew. Also eminently single single-man-able unless being used very intensively, (or put another way, I've done "reorganize the entire known universe" days of shunting as one of a crew of two, and had no problem keeping it in steam with one or other of us on the ground as shunter)
     
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  20. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    One other thought - most of the mock-ups in this thread have wheels that are way too big for a shunting loco.
     

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