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Preservation or Pastiche

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by threelinkdave, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. Herald

    Herald Member

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    There is a difference every passenger (heritage experience customer) will have a very real relationship to the carriage ridden in so would quickly notice the pacer, many will completely fail to notice rail joint noise and may in any case prefer a smoother ride particularly if partaking of a drink from the RMB. ;) Meanwhile the presence of the RMB might be used to educate them about how trains of old had such facilities (even if not on this particular route) and good educational interpretive information might cover things like P-way huts and railway worker cottages and how the railway literally changed working practices and living arrangements. The question surely is whether we try to educate widely about the impact and nature of railways or whether we concentrate simply on the narrow local bit thus missing the opportunity to widen our visitors knowledge and hopefully leave them keen to learn more.

    There is a much wider story to tell than that of one or two old carriages allocated for many years to the same line probably hauled by one of a very small number of regular engines possibly of a single type. As a number of rival attractions (Beamish, Black Country Museum etc.) have shown there is an opportunity to preserve representative collections and assist visitors to understand them in ways which keep people interested and perhaps more importantly attract visits from new generations. Perhaps such places are pastiche or maybe just a realistic recognition that one can't preserve everything exactly as it was.
     
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Beamish highlights some of the challenges - for example, the use of card machines in the "town" shops. In my experience, it strays close to pastiche in that area, but averts it through the focus on it's obligations as a museum, and careful attempt to use the site as being representative of the North East. In similar vein, I have no issues with the use of locomotives that wouldn't have worked on a particular line ("Repton" on the NYMR, say, or "Duke of Berkeley" on the Bluebell), provided that some attempt is made to position them in context of steam railway preservation.

    Sticking with my example around PWay, the shift to modern techniques of PWay maintenance (whether use of CWR or the sophisticated track renewals followed on the Bluebell), do still raise the question of where the balance is struck between preservation and set dressing. How are the skills required for traditional ganging maintained? How is the difference between station limits maintained "the old way" and "the main line" with CWR explained to those casual visitors who might observe? Is that even a consideration, or are the decisions purely economic?

    I don't wish to saddle railways with unsustainable cost or labour requirements (and I have deliberately used examples from railways I am a member of and have some, albeit limited, knowledge of), but to try to understand where the boundary of "authenticity" lies, and what that may mean for all preserved railways.

    The reaction here to subsuming preserved railways with modern "mainline" trains has been universally hostile. I'm sure the tourist economies of, for example, North Yorkshire or West Somerset, would suffer if the current steam railways were to be lost. Yet their credibility relies on more than pure economics - and always needs to counter the charge of being for "grown men to play trains". To me, the heritage arguments are an important part of the case for the status quo - how do we protect that with people who don't share our love of those railways?
     
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    On the other hand, you have to avoid the perfect becoming the enemy of the good. I've visited quite a number of preserved railways: some have excellent p/way; some excellent carriages; some are in a strong position for locos; some have well cleared line sides; some have excellent museums and other visitor facilities. I can't think of one that excels in all those areas. So clearly resources are too tight to do everything to an equally high standard across the sector, and it becomes a question of where do you prioritise - both financially and in where you "spend" your available volunteer labour. Even at Beamish, the "vintage" road transport around the site I believe consists primarily of buses running on basically modern chassis, no doubt a necessary concession for vehicles that must have a pretty hard life.

    With regard the "sophisticated track renewal" at the Bluebell: it's true that laying 180metres of track over the course of two nights involved laser-guided bulldozers, road-rail vehicles, mechanical tamper and so on. Realistically, it couldn't have been done any other way, at least not without a complete possession lasting several weeks, which would essentially mean delaying until the winter. Yet is that really any different from what happens, maybe less visibly, in other departments? For example, take a look at the latest update on the overhaul of No. 27: cylinders cast from 3D printed poly patterns produced directly from CAD drawings. Not very heritage! But I wonder how many people are clamouring for the cylinders to be made, at much greater expense, from wooden patterns produced by reference to pen on paper drawings? Fireboxes are routinely weld repaired, where in the past they would have had riveted patches.

    So we are back to the fact that we all have different perception of what we consider an "unacceptable deviation from tradition" and what is a "necessary pragmatic solution". As an example, I'm pretty relaxed about drawings produced on CAD, but dislike using radios for shunting rather than traditional hand or lamp signals (feeling that that is too much of a deviation from tradition; and is also much more visible to visitors, for whom we should be striving not only to appear, but to operate, according to traditional methods). But that's just my view: others will no doubt take a different view, probably conditioned by their own experience.

    Incidentally, one little correction: there seems to have been a conflation on this thread between flat bottom rail, and continuously welded rail. The former does not necessarily imply the latter. On the Bluebell, we are steadily relaying with flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers away from station areas, but AFAIK, it is all jointed at 60' intervals: none of it is continuously welded.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Some well considered comments from Phil, Tom and 35B, which clearly highlight the competing considerations faced by heritage lines. One issue, probably so obvious to those with years of hands-on experience that it falls into the 'goes without saying' category, is the time taken in training. Lamp signalling and shunting, for instance, will be second nature to folks with such long experience, but these are safety-critical jobs, where training to full competence isn't quick. I'm not for a second saying it's not a worthwhile time investment, just pointing out heritage lines, out of necessity, increasingly have to condense the years of knowledge of long serving railwaymen into a training programme for volunteers with little or no relevant experience.

    One aspect missing from our marvellous heritage lines is a working freight yard bigger than a couple of sidings. Could you imagine training volunteers up from cold to run alongside loaded and moving unfitted wagons with a shunters pole? That's before considering a safe means of getting the public into a decent viewing position to enjoy the spectacle. Good luck getting insurance cover for that!

    There's a big difference between quasi-commercial operation, like Dartmouth and lines like, say, the W&L, who rely almost exclusively on volunteers. The way a balance is struck comes down to what the line prioritises, plus the manpower and finance to get things done. The purist may lament the lack of that nostalgic clickety-clack of jointed track, and it's undeniable that it IS a defining quality of steam age travel, but the PW teams and the folks who have to keep locos and stock fit to run (never mind the folk responsible for the line's finances!) might, understandably, have a more (let's call it) 'pragmatic' view. The harsh reality is that levels of labour needed to run steam age railways are a luxury I doubt any line enjoys in all departments.

    On the plus side, odd hiccups aside, the overwhelming majority of lines do find a workable, if less than 100% ideal balance. The odd gripe is only to be expected. Some of them raise very valid issues. Over nearly 70 years now, the heritage / preservation movement has constantly evolved and adapted, and I've every confidence it will continue to do so
     
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  5. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Just a small correction. You dont run alongside moving wagons with a shunting pole but with a brake tick. Search youtube for Shunter Blacks Night Off. Filming was at Feltham hump pre retarders. The brake stick is used to get leverage to apply wagon handbrakes. The shunting pole is for coupling and uncoupling chain couplings. If you can learn to use one it is much safer than going between to couple up. Learning to use a pole requires opportunity. Most heritage railways only run a few freights and as well as training you need to keep your hand in. Doing s freight course then not running an unfitted for 3 years probably means taking the course again. I was taught by ex BR men for whome shunting was all part of the job. Their expertise needs handing on.
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thanks Dave, the brake pole is what I had in mind. Didn't even know the there were two different poles. See what I meant about no relevant experience? :)

    Fantastic clip. Can't imagine anyone on a comparable pay grade being able to afford to rent a cottage like that these days! The wooden chassis LMS wagon caught my eye before it caught light. "Anything that runs" during those dark days! Did I imagine a slight 'strine' twang under the RP English?

    A hump shunting yard will forever remain beyond the means of the heritage sector, but a "Queen Mary" or Dancehall" sized brake van would make a fantastic visitor centre cum movie theatre for an interpretive exhibition about these lost arts. I wonder... just thinking aloud.. what's the smallest scale DCC layout suitable for showing visitors a working representation?
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  7. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Being in the North, you sort of get used to them and the track quality has a lot to do with it. On the Oldham/Rochdale line they used to ride terribly, but on the Manchester - Crewe line, under the wires, they aren't too bad. I used to hate them, but now I sort of like them, well a bit! I actually think a 142 should be preserved, they did fill a big hole in secondary services at a time of cut backs and they have now, believe it or not, been on the railway for longer than the Stanier Pacifics were!
     
  8. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Here is another clip showing both ole and brake stick

     
  9. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I've only ever ridden on them the once and that's enough for me. I can't think of any good reason for spending money on preserving any.
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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  11. I'm sure many people in the past have expressed exactly the same sentiment about any number of steam-era carriages when they were still either very common, were grubby and decrepit from years of inner-suburban grot or were not maintained so well in their latter years. Exactly the same carriages that are now, many years later and now thanks to their rarity, restored to exhibition standard and the star attraction in various 'vintage' trains. Indeed in a condition in which they probably never spent more than the first day out of works during their 'real' working lives.

    Yesterday's shiny and new is today's commonplace, tomorrow's down at heel, the next day's naff, the next day's scrap, the next day's forgotten, the next day's rediscovered, the next day's vintage and the next day's we-can't-afford-to-lose-this-because-it's-our-history.

    That's how the whole history business works in our culture. The passage of time has a profound effect on how we as humans view things - once the novelty of 'shiny-and-new' has work off, desirability dips sharply for a considerable period and then gradually rises as time passes. The everyday experience generally needs to be out of, or close to being out of, collective living memory before we really start to appreciate it as 'history'. Your view of Pacers is because they - and you - happen to be nearer the left end of the above scale than the right.

    I can imagine the reaction of those who were there at the time if they could see people today enthusiastically clambering into the open wagons on the Pockerley Waggonway at Beamish and treating it as some sort of adventure. To those for whom that form of their travel was their 'present', their everyday humdrum reality... they would have been every bit as dismissive about that as a valid form of historic preservation as you are about Pacers.
     
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  12. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Perhaps I'm frozen in time, I remember someone telling me I would regret not recording the demise of the Weterns and the Deltics on film which may be true but I haven't done yet. I was just wondering if Joe Public who visits a steam railway would appreciate being pitched around in one of these rattle carts
     
  13. Not now, no. But in 50, 75, 100 years time? Undoubtedly, because it will be an experience outwith what they know as the 'everyday'. History needs to be compared to the contemporary in order for it to be history.

    It is defined as what it is not every bit as much as what it is.
     
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  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    You don't, because they don't have that much meaning to you, and your interest has remained focused on steam. Others' interests have evolved and as such they look back at the passing of the Westerns and Deltics with regret at what they missed. I don't make any value judgement on you or others for where that interest has taken you.

    You then ask about the Pacers, and why anyone would take interest in those rattle carts:) Historically, I think they ought to be preserved; just as some other lowly, obscure and in it's day unloved stock has been - say the Quad Arts or the SECR 100 seaters. I always wonder at the popularity of old buses, as they are slow and uncomfortable.

    But, to the theme of my original question, Pacers are a likely answer to "what if Beeching hadn't closed this line" for a number of lines, and would have their place. Despite their discomfort (and I once did Carlisle - Leeds in one), they offer good views - probably better for most people than a 1st generation unit. As a 2 car unit, that says to me that they could find a useful place.
     
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  15. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    You might not but plenty do miss them include Victor in the case of Deltics. One man's meat etc .
     
  16. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    On welded rail I would rather ride in a Pacer than a Class 150. You get a smooth ride and a good all round view. The Class 150 is easily the worst designed passenger space of modern times.

    But Pacers should be banned from jointed track.
     
  17. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    Herald refers to passengers as ... "heritage experience customers"... which is a good description in many cases.

    It's important that the customers perceive that they are getting a heritage experience if that's what they are expecting. Not many of them will know exactly what to expect, because they weren't around when it was an everyday experience. But there needs to be enough of a vintage feel to the experience to satisfy that expectation. If the vintage feel arises from pure authentic restoration that's great. If it arises because of some sort of pastiche then that's also fine so long as the customer is satisfied.

    The other side of the equation is what motivates the volunteer to keep volunteering. Everyone has different interests from Double Slips to 16 ton mineral wagons. If the volunteers are not motivated to grease fishplates then compromises have to be made. So long as the Customer is still happy, it doesn't really matter.

    We non-volunteering enthusiasts are largely irrelevant. I personally will go a long way to seek out an authentic heritage experience, but I have no right to demand one from every line that I visit.
     
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  18. Paul Kibbey

    Paul Kibbey Well-Known Member

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    Also , Alton on the Mid-Hants and our very own Dunster WSR and long may they remain .
     
  19. Paul Kibbey

    Paul Kibbey Well-Known Member

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    On the Minehead Branch late 50s early 60s it was generally a Pannier Tank with 4 on except summer Saturdays where it would be change over day at Butlins then it would be a Prarie with 6 on , at least that's what I saw from my grandparents house opposite the station in Watchet .
     
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Given conversation on the WSR Operations thread, I thought I might bring this thread out of retirement rather than abuse the hospitality of West Somerset for what is a more general discussion.

    There are many who argue that Edmondson tickets are not necessary, and support the use of a modern computerised system for ticket issue. The arguments appear to be based on speed to set up/close down a booking office and ease of handling pricing permutations, while it's also clear that stocks of card for Edmondson tickets is now difficult to come by.

    I've expressed my disappointment at this development (as I am also disappointed at other railways that have gone down the same road), as a loss of heritage. This isn't about the tickets themselves (I personally find Edmondson tickets too easy to lose), but about the move away from historic working practices that are also part of the museum aspect of a preserved railway.
     
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