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Preservation or Pastiche

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by threelinkdave, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Forgive me but this Edmondson ticket business seems de minimis, gnat straining, nit picking or whatever similar expression commends itself. There are things about leisure railways that provoke feelings of the "heritage railway my backside"kind far more than this.
     
  2. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    It may be de minimis but in a hobby where "rivet counter" is a term of praise, it seems odd to criticise a focus on detail.

    Besides which, my comment is not so much about ticketing itself as the signal that changing the ticketing represents. There is a continuum which, if followed to a logical extreme, would see many other features that are valued about preserved railways also ditched. Therefore, I question where the boundary should be.
     
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  3. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Member

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    Also, for many it's one of the first things they get on arrival before they wander round the station, look at the loco and board the train. Always best to get things off to a good start.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Half of the "straining at gnats" quotation refers to "swallowing camels". Tourist railways tend to swallow rather a lot of camels.
    Ratber a lot of passengers book on line to get discounts, Even if they don't, before any money ever changes hands, their first impressions will be of buildings and general tidiness. Most passengers are not gricers.
     
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I don't consider proper tickets to be particularly gricerish. Passengers don't comment on many, many things, whether I, you or anyone else considers them camels or gnats, but one thing passengers do comment on is the presence of traditional tickets, I have been on the receiving end of such comments many times of how older passengers remember tickets like this and tell their grandchildren that's how they used to get to school etc. Equally, I've had passengers with more modern event style tickets who have booked online in advance sit next to people with Edmondson tickets and ask me, sometimes rather disappointingly "Why haven't we got 'proper' tickets?"
     
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  6. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Member

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    Depends. Based on my recent TTI turns, somewhere between 30-40% with pre-booked tickets. Special events will have a higher percentage.
    I didn't say they weren't, buying the ticket is still one of the first things people actually do other than arrive and walk to the booking office. People often get a souvenir ticket from the booking office just so the kids can have theirs clipped (usually when a family is travel under a family ticket which is a single edmondson).
     
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Yep, likewise here, even large group bookings which are paid in advance quite often kids will get given their own tickets and several times I've been specifically asked to go and clip them. I've had the odd occasion where there's been large groups of pensioners who also demanded proper tickets despite having prepaid and had booked seats.
     
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  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Oh they are gricerish all right, or for people even older than myself. It would appear that supplies of the right kind of cardboard are running out so the issue is unlikely to be around to be argued about for much longer. I have heard expressions of pleasure by parents of very young children at being issued with a "my first railway ticket" in present day style for their infant.
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Most likily because these people don't remember traditional railway tickets , after all its now been quite a long time since BR stopped issuing Edmonton card tickets . but I bet their grandparents would say something very different , its all subjective , see most people today won't remember the 1960's many were not even born then, their only memory, and often the only time they have gone anywhere by train will be on a preserved railway.
     
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  10. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    And you continue to miss my point - which is that preservation is about more than specific artefacts.
     
  11. Kingscross

    Kingscross New Member

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  12. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    Well, JRM ought to support pastiche given his whole persona;)
     
  13. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Patently not so, It can only be preservation of objects as the previous economic or social purposes no longer exist. It can give an impression of how things once were but some things, e.g. pasteboard tickets, have to be sacrificed.
     
  14. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Categorically disagree, preservation is about much more than objects, it is recreating a way of working (with appropriate updates where safety is concerned). What use is preserving a steam engine without preserving firing techniques? Often you must preserve ways of working to restore objects; techniques to create luggage netting in carriages, signwriting, that lovely glass in the toplights of your oldbury coach, operating trains, it's all part of a whole. Buying tickets from a booking office at all is an important part of the experience.
    Now I can just about accept a difference on opinion on how important passengers rate traditional tickets, notwithstanding the fact that it's you vs all of us who actually talk to passengers either issuing or clipping tickets, but other than the difficulty in acquiring materials, why must Edmondson tickets be sacrificed? Your last sentence sounds extremely dogmatic, with no argument to back up why they have to be sacrificed.
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Exactly what I mean about straining at gnats.
     
  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Your reply has no bearing on what I posted, there seems little point in continuing in this discussion with you unless you engage with what is said rather than simply stating the same mantra.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  17. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    I look forward to the reaction of your colleagues at Havenstreet when some of Northern's withdrawn 142s start arriving, on the principle that keeping the vintage carriages running is straining at gnats and unnecessary;)

    Despite your attempts to cast this as black and white, I recognise this issue has many shades of grey. Thinking of instances of modernisation that I regret at railways where I am a member, @Jamessquared has pointed out why diesels are needed at the Bluebell, despite my regret at the loss of the operational discipline of being 100% steam worked; similarly the colour light at Pickering has been well explained. I even believe there's a railway on an island off the south coast which runs a pair of Ivatt tanks that never previously visited the island... I can follow the arguments for all of these decisions, and others - yet feel the scree slipping under my feet as I do so.

    Outside the railway bubble, there are people who preserve a variety of craft skills, and we are the richer for it. The value of their retention is not necessarily amenable to a pure cost/benefit analysis, yet there is a point at which the loss leaves us without the soul of what we all love.
     
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That's Mr. Hitch for you. Experience wins over mantra every time IMO.
     
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  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Much of this I actually agree with, particularly, believe it or not, the point about shades of grey. There will be plenty more awkward decisions to make in future about more important things than tickets.
     
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  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Back toI normally have you on "ignore" but was curious. Back to ignore again.
     

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