Project for short heritage railway beside busway Dunstable

I just wondered if my earlier question (see quote below) about "open countryside" could be answered?

An earlier question on this forum asks "What's in it for the visitor?". Here is the foremost item in Alfred's reply "The scenary that the proposed railway runs through is a stark contrast - from the crossroads on the A5 (the grim housing around the beginning of Houghton Road, the council houses at Brewers Hill Road, and the urban bedsit land of High Street North), what is basically industrial wasteland at Tavistock Street --> thence out into open countryside within a short distance."

There are two distinct roles in which I am being asked, via this thread, to help support this scheme. First, as a railway enthusiast and (possible) provider of information to be used to build the Business Case (see earlier requests from Alfred for information about existing railway centres); and second, as a possible future visitor (the location is just over an hour away from me and well within a day trip for me and my family). The prospect of a trip, in around three years time, "into open countryside" - fields, woodland, farms - is quite appealing. Except that I might find I had been deceived.

So, Alfred, where is the "open countryside" through which the train will run?

Steve
(WSW)

 

=; , ](*,) , :-# , [-(

 

You mean that doesn't 'sell the experience' to you? 8-[

"Come along! Bring your children, your friends and expensive cameras to our unique photo charters. Oh, and a Taser, just in case!" :-k

 

Being a member of the Yahoo email list does not imply that those members will necessarily support the proposal. Many will belong simply out of curiosity, to monitor progress and proceedings of what may or may not, ultimately develop into a practical project of some sort.

Chris

 

The Yahoo group includes the following summary of their initial meeting in June:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dunstable_Railway_Centre/message/249

EDIT: Sorry - access to this Yahoo group has now been blocked for non-members by Mr Roberts

Richard

 

I am sorry but I cannot be bothered to reply to the above postings.

Reading your comments you seem to be so determindly negative that to reply to them will only set you off again.

I recall Chris Dadson's comments that I am being 'baited' on here and that you did precisely the same thing to two other projects - Wisbech et al. He referred to you on my e mail group last week, and this week I found that both of his posts had been removed by one of the other senior members who is a moderator to my my e mail group because the man took a look through what you had been writing and did not want anything to do with you all.

Your own moderator has said that you should be more constructive instead of going 'gung ho into battle'.

No doubt you will all be very frustrated by my not taking much notice of you all and not being baited by you all, as I have seen through you all for what you are.

What I meant by open countryside was that there is grassed open ground.

The East Anglian Railway Museum has a ride only 400 to 500 yards long and that is a perfectly thriving attraction, although they do run up and down the goods yard a couple of times to make it seem longer and use steam. The view is only of sidings, unlike at Dunstable, which would be of open scenary.

There are theoretical opportunities for extension later on.

The re - opening of the Dunstable to Luton line has some merit I agree, but in the most recent proposals for re - opening only the section from the old Vauxhall sidings into Luton would be re - opened - the Vauxhall sidings to High Street North section would remain abandoned.

Finally, I have altered the settings on the yahoo group to prevent anyone who is not a member from seeing the archives.

 

Thank you for bothering to reply to my very fair, constructive question about one of your Unique Selling Points. I suggest to say "open countryside" is rather misleading to those who are potential funders and future visitors and I advise you to use another more accurate term instead.

Despite your clear annoyance at some of the comments on this forum, I think you'll agree that some of us, whilst seeing see huge problems for you, are trying to ask the kind of questions you will need to answer honestly and clearly, especially to those who you are seeking money from, for they will be very hard on you.

Good luck.

Steve
(WSW)

 

Not at all - what's frustrating is your point blank refusal to listen to any well-meant advice which isn't along the lines of "Brilliant idea, Alfred. It's just what railway preservation in the UK needs. You are one fantastic guy." THAT'S what's frustrating.

Again you demonstrate your unsurpassed fabulous ability to completely miss the point. The EARM is in picturesque rural Essex, bounded by a sleepy branch line and farmland. It has the olde worlde Englynde appeal so beloved of the family market. There are more reasons that just the railway to go to the area. It is certainly not bounded by huge fences and what sounds like a serious case of urban deprivation.

If this idea of yours is to have any legs at all, you have to look at the bigger picture! You have to look outside the railway itself. If I really want to look a short length of vandalised track on a bit of scrubland, I can see that in any UK city. But I don't believe for a moment it's what Mum, Dad, Granny and the kids want to visit on their Sunday afternoon. Ask any preserved line - that's who you need. And plenty of 'em too.

I'm sorry, truly I am, but that really is what you're up against. As I've said before more than once, if you put all that most laudable energy of yours towards an existing project you could achieve so much. Far more than wasting it pursuing this unrealisable dream of Alfred's personal 400 yard 12"/ft scale train set.

 

But that's all completely irrelevant if Chappel doesn't have a conservative club in the High Street... [-X

Sorry, sorry :-#

(Actually I owe Alfred an apology. He did list some of Dunstable's other, er, 'attractions' in an earlier post. I'd forgotten that, sorry)

 

I think the comparison to the charming EARM puts this all into perspective. Whatever next? Didcot only overlooks a power station? As other posters have stated, Alfred has totally missed the point and refuses to accept any constructive criticism! This and the never-ending 103 saga both sadly fail to cut the mustard I'm afraid. I did note from the Yahoo group (prior to restricting access) that even group members questioned the viability of the entire venture. When I first entered the world of preservation back in the mid-1970's, it was indeed possible to find a derelict location and build your dream but not any more. I really do sympathise but I'm sure others see this as another private campaign to achieve an impossible dream judging by the number of email groups and forums that receive postings on this topic. There are so many lines that would welcome someone with the enthusiasm and drive demonstrated in this topic by Alfred and would derive significant benefit from such an involvement.

This is not meant to be an attempt at baiting, winding up or having a go before a sweeping generalisation comment is posted again. Just a genuine comment from a preservationist of some 30 odd years standing.

 

If anybody asked me these types of questions...

I would start off by giving them a copy of the Bedfordshire Tourism growth strategy to read.

Bedfordshire Tourism growth strategy states that Bedfordshire is at the bottom of tourist destinations in Eastern England in terms of awareness and perception.

Luton has a particular problem with its image. This is also obvious from what has been said on here.

In recent years work has begun to change this situation, based around better marketing of Bedfordshire and improved attractions.

Luton actually has a surprising number of bars (27), restaurants (31), nightclubs (11) and hotels (7). There is good shopping in the Arndale Centre. But it is a large town and very rough in places and I accept it is not really suitable as a tourist destination.

The proposed heritage railway is proposed to be in Dunstable NOT in Luton.

Although Dunstable has sizeable social housing estates and has been de - industrialised since 1980s (with all the problems this brings) because it is more affluent, more sophisticated and better looking, Dunstable is far more of a "tourist" destination than Luton, and there are already three or four tourist attractions in Dunstable, one even in Luton and two others nearby.

Priory Church Dunstable
http://www.dunstableparish.org.uk/ptrrhint.htm
http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov.uk/w ... church.htm
http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/gallery52-.html

Grove Theatre Dunstable
http://www.grovetheatre.co.uk/

Priory House Heritage Centre Dunstable
http://www.culture24.org.uk/am23491
http://www.dunstable.gov.uk/pages/prior ... 0plans.htm

Chiltern Downs Gateway Centre
http://www.gos.gov.uk/goeast/news/newsarchive/565453/
http://www.architype.co.uk/chilterns.html

Whipsnade Zoo
http://www.whipsnadezooguide.co.uk/
http://www.zsl.org/zsl-whipsnade-zoo/pl ... our-visit/

Carnival Arts Centre Luton
http://www.lcadt.com/centre/
http://www.eeda.org.uk/653.asp
http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/p ... se=archive
http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/cont ... ture.shtml

To build up tourist attractions the relevent parties have harnessed existing historical or natural features of the area (the history of Dunstable in one of the old buildings there, the Priory Church, the Chiltern hills nearby).

The proposal for a heritage railway (harnessing the long disused railway line as a foundation to build up a tourist attraction) proposes to continue the above trend.

Great emphasis is placed on assisting economic regeneration of the surrounding area and the connurbation in general by the proposed heritage railway , unlike the other tourist attractions provided in recent years.

None of the more deprived areas of Dunstable have any of the tourist attractions found elsewhere in the town. The proposed heritage railway would be located in one of the deprived areas of Dunstable to the North of the town (Northfield ward). By attracting tourist visitors to the area, and boosting patronage of local cafes, fast food takeaways, shops and the local pub and resturant, the proposed heritage railway will help to regenerate the deprived area in which it is situated.

As you can imagine, Luton and Dunstable have levels of unemployment above the average for the area. To help the deprived area it is situated in and others, the proposed heritage railway hopes to provide training and work placements for those on day releases from Further Education colleges and those on Department for Work Family and Pensions and Employment Service job creation and training schemes. It is hoped that the location of the railway in one of the more deprived areas of Dunstable will help to encourage interest in participation in these schemes on the proposed heritage railway, because those in receipt of these schemes will be all the more aware of it.

Well I can't see how people can do graffiti on a piece of track and last time I looked the Dunstable branch was like any other rail line in that there are no windows between the sleepers for anybody to smash.

But seriously, looking at access to the attraction (via the very uniform A505 road off M5, through the endless although well landscaped council estates off Brewers Hill Road, the grim housing along Houghton Road or High Street North which looks increasingly drab and uniform as the A5 runs to the North), the proposed heritage railway faces the same challenges as the other tourist attractions in the town.

It is all part of the challenge facing the Bedfordshire and Luton tourism growth strategy.

Look at the refs I have given you to the other attractions in the area, and see how you think this scheme fits into what they are doing there and what you think of the other attractions in the area.

 

There are other heritage railways located in urban areas. The Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust is a case in point. They are located at the Hunsbury Hill Country Park and access is via a modern housing estate. The location of the proposed heritage railway at Dunstable is a step down from Northampton - located in land scheduled to become open space (not a fully fledged country park with all the landspace and facilities this implies) and access is via the drab housing at the top end of High Street North - the grim looking housing at the bottom of Houghton Road, the council estate at Brewers Hill Road and the industrial 'waste land' at the junction r/b. But these areas of land are all well landscaped saving them from becoming total eyesores, and many areas nearby are scheduled for redevelopment in the near future.

The Middleton Railway (the first standard guage railway in UK) is located in an urban area (a mile from Leeds city centre). The Great Central Railway made ghreat efforts to get back into Leicester (Belgrave). The Keighley and Worth Valley Railway runs through the Keighley back streets on its way out of town. Both Leeds and Leicester are much bigger connurbations than Luton - Dunstable - Houghton Regis!

Last but not least, looking at the street map of Luton and Dunstable I purchased before I started this in 2007, the r/b at the junction of A5 - High Street North and Houghton Road and Brewers Hill Roads is only one block / street away from open countryside (Chalk Farm). So visitors arriving along A5 from North will only have a short drive through urban area before they reach the proposed heritage railway, which would be the only standard guage heritage railway in Bedfordshire or Hertfordshire.

Along the extension of the proposed heritage railway, although some of the land alongside is industrial 'waste' disused since 1970s, the land between High Street North and Brewers Hill Road is well landscaped and such a ride would be an interesting ride through North station site; after Brewers Hill Road for the first few hundred yards the line runs beside industrial land before it reaches open countryside. There is a local footpath then a stretch that is just a wilderness before Sewell Trail takes up the track bed. A good terminous point would be the overgrown cutting at end of Sewell Trail 2 km from South Apex of Triangle. But extension as far as A505 is possible, then a bridge beneath A505 would be an expensive process.

 

Some people think this proposal is a bad idea. Some think it is a good one. But these are merely personal opinions, in which the local authority or other funding partners will have precisely no interest. Where they will start to sit up and take notice is when the concrete evidence of the need for this project starts to emerge. By "need", I don't mean the sort of evidence that has been presented so far, which is along the lines of "there is a need for something, and this is something...", I mean proper marketing research that demonstrates that the proposal would be popular with, and of benefit to the community.

If I were developing the idea of a new visitor attraction I would be getting a team of people around me who can help me develop the project. I would be making sure that my dialogue with the council can quickly evolve beyond suggesting that some sort of heritage railway might be value to the community - they're unlikely to disagree with an initial idea - and I would be making sure that I had something concrete to bring to the party, be that money, a worked up project plan, some marketing research as well as the tons of enthusiasm that are needed. I would be demonstrating, in some detail that what I am suggesting is something of value in terms of, for example, community well-being, creating jobs and training opportunities and stimulating the local economy. I would be absolutely sure of the vision of what I was suggesting; exactly what is the visitor experience going to be? I would be working out quite definite costs for the project. I would be offering some evidence to show how long it would take to achieve key milestones in the project if it were to go ahead. I would be developing a list of possible funding partners, showing how they have a track record of funding projects like this. I would be opening up my project to scrutiny, not only to make sure I'm damned sure I know what I'm talking about, but also so I can be open to the good ideas that such scrutiny brings. In short, I would be making it as easy as possible for the local authority to support my project by having all the answers at my fingertips, and I would not go bothering them again until I had done all that. As DTC itself said:

“Once you have worked up a business plan, I would be happy to involve Dunstable Town Council in any round table discussions with Central Bedfordshire Council, Luton Borough Council and Houghton Regis Town Council.”


So, it’s difficult to say at the moment that this project is a bad one, but there’s little evidence yet to show that it’s a good one. That may well come, and I wish all the best to Alfred in developing his idea.

 

I don't know the area at all but does this project in any way link the existing tourist attractions OR provide any form of intrinsic attraction in its own right ? Is it likely to be supported under the local/regional tourism strategy? Perhaps a public consultation would be a sensible way forward and establish if it is (a) desirable or (b) viable.

Speaking as someone involved in a new generation line in my area, ours is described as being pivotal to both the local regeneration plan and the local tourism strategy. This does appear to carry significant benefits in terms of grant funding.

In summary, it needs to be able to stand on its own two feet and underpin (or be underpinned as part of) the wider strategy. Just my thoughts...

 

I’ve been following this thread with a degree of amusement..

May I offer a word of wisdom? If you’ve given this project the thumbs down, why not simply ignore this thread? Cynics may note that by constantly answering/provoking another forum member one is merely serving to give the aforementioned a platform, which therefore only appears create a never-ending cycle of irritation for both ‘camps’. I’m not trying to stifle debate – that’s one of the raison d’etre of forums such as this after all

By throwing suggestions at this thread, it could be argued that one is merely serving to further its cause as it makes its supporters think of ways of answering critics/cynics and also to cite examples of.. – well I think you know where I’m coming from.

Just my two penneth worth. Over to you

 

The area is a s*** hole.