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Railtour Management. Isn't it time we had some?

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Desert Songster, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Why was the OP being overambitious? If I went to North Wales and planned a trip on the Ffestiniog one day, the Welsh Highland the next day, the Talyllyn the next and so on, I'd be pretty confident that each company could, independent of each other, deliver their part of my intinerary. So why shouldn't the same apply to railtours, which are at least nominally independent of each other? Shouldn't I have a reasonable expectation that the promoters are going to be able to deliver what they have promised?

    I do wonder if, as enthusiasts, we are our own worst enemies. The clamour to run epic trips with new traction on previous unused routes - sending a King to the northern fells, or an A4 to the Devon banks - must put a great strain on operators to work out the logistics afresh for every trip. In the circumstances, you can understand why running the same loco and carriages on a fixed itinerary week after week must look rather more attractive, even if that means the trip is then marketed at the bucket and spade brigade, or the premium dining market, rather than the enthusiast market.

    Tom
     
  2. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's a fair point Tom, I say it's over ambitious because I woulden't have anything like the confidence for a strike rate of 5 in 5 to be 100% as advertised, I'm not saying it's right that what's promised is rarely delivered, just more naivety on the OP's part for believing that would be the the case with the current track record.
     
  3. Desert Songster

    Desert Songster New Member

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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Both of these come back to gauging, 47's are all the same size and fit to 95% of places no bother, steam engine's are not a standard size or weight, a Bulleid might fit down through Yeovil to Exeter, but a Castle may not, therefore a Castle cannot sub if the Bulleid becomes unavailable, and that's when something it's actually out of gauge rather than the comedy NR "paperwork not up to date situation" which seems to have affected the DCE.

    47's are all to a common standard, steam isn't, say you have 5 47's operational for a tour and 10 steamers operational for a tour, all 5 47's could be used as they are indentical, only 2 out the 10 steamers could be used due to requiring an air braked class 8, 75MPH approved, that isn't wide or tall of gauge, 8 out of the 10 would fail to meet this requirement, meaning if you have issue with the other two, your soon in the proverbial.
     
  5. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    This point has been made before of course when similar discussions have been had in the past. The reality is there are too many players now, each looking after their own corner and working to grab the biggest slice of the cake. This is why increasingly ambitious tours get advertised further and further in advance. The result is the events described by the OP. We all loved that magical honeymoon period following the demise of the David Ward / SLOA era, but what we have now simply isn't sustainable in the long run, and as in the crash of 2008, I fear a big bubble is set to burst.
     
  6. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    But my memory of the SLOA era when I was in NELPG (and back then I did steward on our tours) was that it worked, the replacement hasn't because there is no coordination. A short notice loco failure cancellation on the DCE can just be forgiven (and we have to accept the reason given for no other loco' being available is true) but at least one of the other quoted reasons for why one of this month's cancellations has occurred appears to be down to utter incompetence somewhere in the tour supply chain.
     
  7. spindizzy

    spindizzy Member

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    Wasn't our good friend Frank talking about all this some time ago?
     
  8. Desiro450

    Desiro450 Guest

    The trains that seem to work are just as you describe, Scarborough, Mallaig, Stratford on Avon, S &C etc etc. Maybe it's time to give up on the grand tours that leave at 0500 and return at 0039, and concentrate all the effort on running those. manageable times, reasonable prices, some level of reliability. Plus not aimed solely at fickle enthusiasts.....
     
  9. Desert Songster

    Desert Songster New Member

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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  10. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    I do agree with you here. As in my previous post, we loved that post BR era when the shackles came off, and demanded more and more of the rare and rarer. The Suppliers responded by massaging rather than managing our expectations so now we have a situation where the backbone of mainline steam, (the loco owners) are being pushed to the limit of what's sustainable. Something has to give, and usually it's the passenger, (the root cause), who as I've already said are very forgiving and keep propping it up. For how much longer though ?
     
  11. mike1522

    mike1522 Long Time Member Friend

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    What would annoy me is if I were to be an employee somewhere and get the permission to have x day off granted just to have the tour get cancelled and having to spend the day doing nothing.
     
  12. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

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    So you went for an ambitious agenda already knowing that two of the steam pool were knackered? I would say you knew you were pushing your luck.
     
  13. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Well-Known Member

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    Running on time at the NYMR would be a novelty!
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's cruel. :)
     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think the majority of yours are aimed at a much wider market than just enthusiasts. I know we're all getting older but 05:00 starts and late arrivals back were very common on tours I did in the 70s and 80s - both steam and modern traction - and nobody thought twice about it. Must have been because we were all young and used to burning the candle at both ends. :)
     
  16. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    Those timings may always have existed, even been fairly common, but there weren't so many railtours running then, and probably relied more on enthusiasts as there were more back then who'd lived and worked through the steam era. Now with so many competing leisure attractions and a different market I'm not sure the nigh on "24 hour" style railtour is the way forward, especially given the day for volunteer support crew is longer by several hours at both ends of the day, and they're not getting any younger either in many cases. There's also the issue that many of these mega long days are initially advertised with far more more sociable timings so it's not as if passengers even know what they're letting themselves in for much of the time.
     
  17. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Not sure that even people in the catchment areas find many timings that convenient though they may well put up with it. Look at those for Tornado for example on Saturday 07:40 off Euston back lateish too. With cross London times to factor in you'd have to be into one of the other termini by 7am so probably facing a 5am alarm clock. Wasn't the start time for last weekend's Western tour before 6am for anyone brave enough to face the full day from Leicester?
     
  18. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Despite the many tours on offer, this year I have travelled on fewer than usual. When I travel it is usually with SWMBO in dining class. Contrary to popular NP opinion, there are still a considerable number who could be classed as enthusiasts in this class. We have travelled on fewer occasions because: I don't like diesels on steam excursions, the locos that I wish to travel behind have not been available, and the final routes and times have been uncertain until very close to the tour date. Our most recent tour was the last Welsh Mountaineer. We travelled on this depite the lack of dining facilities because it is a spectacular route from Chester onwards, 61994 is a cracking loco that we have experienced only once before, and Blaenau Ffestiniog has the narrow gauge to see. Although overall we enjoyed this tour, there were two major irritations: we had to be up at 5am to get to Preston for the departure and did not get back to base until 11pm; and there was far too much hanging about en route. I like mainline steam excursions because of nostalgia for my childhood and youth. I want to travel in a manner that most closely reproduces my early experiences. I want to travel at a good speed, on mainline runs 75 mph is fine. I don't mind travelling slower on secondary routes. My wife likes a comfortable journey and the opportunity to get her sketch book out. These desires are becoming more difficult to realise. I fully understand the constraints on running an obsolete train on a modern intensely used network, but if the constraints make travelling on a steam excursion an unpleasant and uncertain pastime, we won't travel.
     
  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Much of that can be down to NR surely, given that they sometimes work out the times very late in the day and thus outside the organiser's control.
     
  20. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I am tempted to ask, given how many times this happens, why it always seems to be a surprise to the promoter? Or, put another way, shouldn't it be obvious that the advertised times are unlikely to be available in reality?

    And before anyone asks, I probably shouldn't comment as my last railtour was in Germany - I don't do UK trips after the last one I went on ran on a different day, with different motive power and hence not to the destination event that were advertised, and dropped me at a different station to where I started, with 50 minutes before a train back to the start point - oh, and a friend in the next coach got First Class tickets on offer at the last minute for about the same I paid way in advance for my party's second-class (= no working heat in winter) seats.

    Steven
     

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