Railtour Management. Isn't it time we had some?

You've obviously never booked a flight to Warsaw, ended up in Poznan and found that your luggage is in Vienna.
Regarding Ryanscare's destinations, yes they're up front about, for example, Frankfurt flights being to Frankfurt Hahn but how many people realise just how far Hahn is from Frankfurt? Given their poor customer service at times, I still think it's a poor analogy.
We're going off track here though.

 

Precisely! Why is this not done? Can anyone answer that? If I am not mistaken the various Orient Express Hotels (OEH) trains ('British Pullman', 'Northern Belle', 'The Royal Scotsman') are so timed and appear in WTT's so why not others? Is it that OEH plan things well in advance, 18 months-two years as I understand it - they are currently working on 2015 plans, where others work more short term and there in lies the route of the timing problem.

As to gauging. In the late 1990's and 2000's I was involved with various rail trade shows. At these I saw demonstrated software that simulated the running of trains of various consists throughout the national network. This incorporated the latest gauging informing obtained from structure gauging trains etc and the dimensional characteristics of various locomotives or other rolling stock supplied by VAB's. Thus, if you wanted to run a train of ten mark 1's from Bristol to Llandrindod Wells via Bridgend headed by 34067 'Tangmere' you could request this and see what happens. It would run its programs and either say OK or give a list of restrictions. For example, steam locomotive not permitted via Severn Tunnel, 34067 out of gauge for Lonlas Tunnel, maximum train length on Central Wales is eight. A revised plan with load seven running via Gloucester and Landore could then be tried and might give an OK result. What became of all that?

 

Many of the regular steam operations including the Jacobite, The Torbay Express, The Shakespeare express as well as the VSOE, together with some ECS or test train movements are bid for annually by the Train Operators and do indeed appear in the standard WTT. The problems are the one-off trips which are normally submitted at 16 weeks notice and often timed only a week or two in advance, appearing as STP or VSTP additions/amendments to the WTT.

The gauging is still done in precisely the way you describe, but often it is not completed in time to allow for any late changes of locomotive or operating plan. Of course if NR would be prepared to do gauging analysis and train timing as soon as the bids are submitted then life for the train promoters might be a lot easier, but I guess NR have other higher priorities. to deal with.

 

I tend to go on about one main line tour per year - usually accompanied by my wife. This year, I chose Vintage Trains' "Cheltenham Flyer" with 5043, which must rank as one of the best main line trips I have ever been on. It's my first with Vintage Trains, as I lived in Sussex until November 2011, which is rather out of VT territory. I was very impressed with the operations of this set-up. Indeed, the only criticism I would make was the use of Mk II stock. If only VT could take over the much-lamented GWR set that is languishing at Didcot!

I have only had one disappointment in all the main line trips I have booked on, although it took a lot of hard work on my part to avoid a second. My disappointment occurred in 2011, when I booked with Steam Dreams on a rip from Redhill to Bristol, specifically to sample Tornado on the main line. At the last minute, 4464 Bittern was substituted beause of the issues over Tornado with WCRC, I think. Bittern did put in the sort of typically exhilarating performance you expect from an A4 on the outward leg (the less said about the return journey the better!) but I had chosen the trip for the loco, and would rather the trip had been cancelled.

The other time I nearly ended up disappointed was when I tried to book on an RTC "Swanage Belle" trip in 2010. I specifically wanted to do the entire Swanage branch in both directions with steam. RTC ran three London-Swanage trips that year. The first ran with a different steam loco in each direaction, but not the second, which was diesel-hauled as far as Southampton on the return. We were booked on the third, and it was very obvious that Tangmere, one of the rostered locos, was not going to be available. Fearing a diesel on the return leg, I rang RTC, who insisted that it would be steam both ways. As the day drew nearer, I felt less and less convinced that this would be the case. Finally, after 3 further calls to RTC, the company admitted that the return journey would be diesel-hauled to Southampton, but they very kindly allowed me to transfer by booking to another excursion - in this case the "Capital Christmas Explorer" where 44932 ran over the Swanage branch in both directions to and from London. and what a great trip that was!

So my experiences of main line steam have been pretty positive. I accept Tom's point that you can clock up 100+ miles of steam on a heritage line for much less money, but on the other hand you don't get the thrill of travelling at 75mph, and enjoying a class 7 or 8 express loco doing what it was built to do. When everything goes right with a main line steam excursion, it's a marvellous experience. However, although I intend to continue travelling on main line steam in the future, I do have a few concerns:-

1) There are too many diesels appearing. I saw the "Capital Christmas Express" the year after we travelled on it, and lo and behold, Tangmere was hauling the same number of coaches as 44932 the previous year, but there was a 47 on the back. (47500 stayed at Swanage all day when we had our run behind 44932) If the diesel isn't working, then that's 100 tons or so of dead weight that the steam loco could do without (not to mention the wages of the crew who are manning it) If the diesel is working, then it's not what I am paying for.
2) The itineraries are often very long, especially if you are a ccompanied by a non-enthusiast wife. When Steam Dreams began in 2000 with London-Canterbury and London-Salisbury, that was about right. 2-3 hours getting to your destination and 2-3 hours back is quite long enough. Christmas specials are a particular problem here. Even if you book Premier Dining, you can end up with 2 hours of travelling in the dark after your turkey and Christmas pudding, which can get a bit much. Vintage Trains are making increased use of their converted GUV water carrier. This does at least reduce the time spent on water stops. Why has not this become more common with other operators?
3) Operators advertise timings on the website that sometimes bear little resemblance to the final advertised schedule. Your day can turn out to be much longer than anticipated, and sometimes you don't find out about it until only a few days before.
4) I tend to book tours outside of the summer season, unless I can book at the last minute. My confidence that one will get what is advertised in the summer peak is rather low. I'd love to travel on the "Dorset Coast Express" with the steam banker up to Bincombe, but even ignoring the fire risk issue which has made this suumer so horrendous for this particular repeat-itinerary working, something can go wrong with the loco "pools" leaving insufficient locos to cover all the turns, resulting in cancellations.

Perhaps one solution would be for operators to split their tours into those which are aimed at enthusiasts (which will be guaranteed 100% steam, with postponement the course of action in the event of fire risk, lcoo failure etc.) and those aimed at a more general market, where "pushed steam" or diesel substitution will be accepted as an alternative if something goes wrong.

Having said all this, 2013 has also been a bad year for loco availability as well as for weather. Braunton took longer than anticipated to return to the main line, and 70000 missed the whole season. Still, it should be back soon, and hopefully 5690, 61264, 45212, 60007 and 6023 will be available next year, with 35018 and 35027 to look forward to after that.

All in all, for all the problems that individuals have mentioned on this thread, I for one am grateful to those tour companies who are prepared to keep going on what can be a pretty difficult business. Yes, some times there have been bad patches, and this year has been particularly horrendous, but I'm glad they do what they do so that we can contiunue to enjoy thie wonderful spectacle of steam on our main lines - 45 years after some people thought we would never experience it again.

 

Thanks John - that's a very balanced view.

I agree with you about marathon trips. I'd rather pay, say, £100 for an eight hour day with a couple of hours at the destination, than pay the same money for a 12 - 14 hour day, especially if the 8 hour day can be delivered more reliably, with fewer pathing / water stops and more amenable start / finish times. Sometimes in vfm terms, less is more!

Tom

 

Marcus's original intention was these destinations only but he found that the passengers wanted to a greater variety of destinations.

Weight . It would reduces the number of coaches. There would still have to be pathing since steam is limited to 75mph, and the slow acceleration of steam locos.

Most tours are aimed at the general public. The Bittern 90mph runs, The Cheltenham, the Steam Dreams A4'S trip, 15 Guinea special and the Duchess 75th Anv. trip are the only ones I would class as targeted at enthusiasts this year.

 

Travel insurance ???

 

True, but a loaded water carrier still weighs less than a class 47. As for pathing stops, it depends where you're running. You don't need them in Kent as fast trains like Eurostars and "Javelins" all run on the CTRL. Likewise the LSWR main lines west of Addlestone Junction can usually accomodate steam without pathing stops, although for up trains, Eastleigh-Roundwood can be a bit tight. It's only on lines the GWML, ECML and WCML with frequent 100mph+ services that it becomes an issue.

 

To divide rail-tour passengers into just two sets, enthusiasts and others, is far too black and white. There is a broad spectrum of participants each having a complex mix of motivations and tour selection criteria. However, some of the important factors that decide a tour's success appear from the above discussion to be common to most.

 

As I inferred, that's the problem, all these one-off trips which are not that much different to some of the OEH trains that run to certain itineraries a couple of days a year should be bid for annually rather than at the last minute. Do that and your 90% there with the timings issues.

NR claiming they have higher priorities implies to me gross failings by their management teams. If their current staffing levels and competence is not able to deliver on time then management should do something about it. Surely that is what they are paid such high salaries to deal with. Are these persistent failings by Network Rail being brought to the attention of the Rail Regulator and if so why is no action being taken?

 

The business of main line running has not fallen overnight into disarray. It has always been a flawed business model. David Ward (for the benefit of younger readers, the BR apparatchik who had oversight of main line steam more or less from the beginning through to privatisation) was very clear – a small pool of approved engines and routes, with no debate or right of appeal. SLOA co-operated – they could hardly do otherwise - and both David Ward and his kettles largely stayed off the Operations Director’s radar. By and large steam stayed out of the dreaded HQ Daily Control Log, which was never a good publication to appear in.

Since privatisation the free(ish) market has broken with that tradition. This has provided two decades of amazing spectacle, such as steam on IC routes, that simply would not have happened under the regime ancienne. But David Ward had a secret weapon that kept the finances looking straight – the Royal Train account. Tranches of specific special train "overhead costs" were allocated to the purple VVIP set, and “Brenda” very sweetly paid up on the nail and without question. It helped too that the NRM internal financial controls were non-existent and John Bellwood was amenable to steaming anything that took Ward’s fancy. Chief Boiler Inspector Knight had up his sleeve special short term approvals for just such eventualities, although Shildon in 1975 tested his goodwill and legendary sense of humour, which was dry to the point of dehydration if he thought Ward was taking the p*ss. DBS enjoys no such freedom. Nor does David Smith.

It is the absurd “special railway inflation” of the last two decades that has spawned over-ambitious itineraries, shabby coaching stock, rubbish timings, and reliability you could not set your calendar or sundial by, let alone a watch. Costs have soared, there is nowhere to hide the financial holocaust, and so an air of doom pervades everything – even gauging, and all except the most loyal and obsessive customers.

There is not much Network Rail can do. There is nothing in main line steam for them. They carry on with it only because ORR insists on it, and ORR only insists on it as a bit of legacy dogma from open access. The Route Directors do what they can but it is thankless for them – failures and fires remain endemic, they are crushingly short of paths, and they are judged on safety and performance of the real train service, not some Victorian relic pottering about getting in the way. Sir Peter Parker gave SLOA a lot of air cover when he said steam warms the heart of the public to rail, but that was a long time ago and it was never evidence-based.

The very fragmented operators – those without their own train, works, or operating licence, are probably doomed. Best practice pays off. Tyseley turns an honest penny, but they have their own engines, works, some (not very expensive) carriages, a booking machine embedded in staff costs they would incur anyway, and in-house catering. They buy in a small amount of TOC service from WCR and even then they sometimes fall over with pathing and gauging issues, always when they stray a long way from home – never to Stratford, which runs like a watch and makes a true profit. But even that takes relentless management attention that is often unappreciated by the audience. The rest depend on the appearance on the scene of a regular supply of new Bill Mcalpines or the residual royalties from the Wombles and that is an erratic and unpredictable way of paying for £500,000 general overhauls every seven years, let alone the performance penalties that will come in one day soon, or even carriages you would wish your wife or servants to travel in.

The A1 Trust Finance Director said that a realistic hire fee for their engine is £7000 per day. It probably is – he should know – but even the most obsessive customer flees the scene at some point. I don’t think even VSOE are that generous.

Cost has to be taken out – not added in. The almost absolute separation of heritage and main line is perhaps unhelpful in this regard – the main line locos and carriages sit around on depot for 5 or 6 days a week, often incurring siding rent charges, while heritage lines with daily running struggle to find anything that works. Closer co-operation and interoperability would help owners sweat the assets and earn the overhaul fees.

At least some of the old subsidy is now coming from the stock owners. Not in cash, of course, but in deferred maintenance and poor environmental/cosmetic attention. WCR are not the only providers of tatty stock – you can hire some from almost anyone. Even washing a set can be problematic – carriage washing plants are covered by binding Depot Access agreements but no-one regulates what the depot owner charges and a quick trip through the washer can wipe out the profit from a week of running. Faded upholstery and unspeakable toilets are the norm because it is not part of the FTR process, and gets deferred time and again in an effort not to drown in red ink at financial year end.

Loco owners might usefully demonstrate to the safety regulator that if their boilers are good for ten years on heritage lines, they are good for the same on the main line. If they are going to explode, it doesn’t much matter whose railway they explode on. And in any case, they usually don’t explode, so what are we worried about. Three more years from the same absurdly expensive overhaul would help a bit, as would a few grand from hire fees for the days when the kit isn’t charging about the country at 75 mph.

In an ideal world, a family should be able to take a trip on a steam train for not much more than a day out to Alton towers and all the suppliers should be able to make money out of it. That is a laughable prospect with the current cost base, but just look at the existing customers – a very high proportion of coffin-dodgers, who cannot be seen as a long term sustainable market because death is inevitable and causes a lot of unsold seats.

The shabby and erratic treatment of customers is unforgivable, but I wonder if the dwindling band of devotees realise just how much their pleasures are still being subsidised, and by whom?

Aye

Neil

 

.

 

Nought wrong with being a coffin dodger as long as you're nimble!

 

Controversial !

 

Interesting reading this thread to see how the mood has changed over the last year or so. I recall posting some time ago an analysis (based on David's excellent Uk.steam site) of the poor reliability % of tours when you related the event's originally proposed listing to the actual outcome event. I was howled at, but this time round the OP seems to have caught the mood of angst the current poor % is causing. Tours are a commercial sector, currently as a sector it is failing to deliver in many cases (although there are exceptions) and unless something happens to change things market forces will slim it down. The heading to the OP sums it up, SLOA has been criticised, but a son of SLOA would solve many issues, assuming it wouldn't be regarded as an anti-competitive cartel!

 

Well I have just booked standard on rtc's wandering 1500 and November9th bluebell trips less than 10 standard seats left on both so would appear there are still mugs optimists coffin dodgers which ever applies left what is the likelyhood of both running as advertised tho'?????

 

It is to be hoped that those from the glossy magazines who clearly keep an eye on this forum have taken note of what has been said in this topic. In particularly the contribution from geekfindergeneral that is a superb summary of where we are and how we got there. The glossy magazines continue to peddle the myth that all in the garden is rosy when it is far from that. True, major fiascos get reported but that is about it. Very little analysis backed up with good journalistic research ever appears and little following through in later editions. Perhaps they don't see that as their role anymore.

 

Only just read through this thread but the last question highlights a good part of the problem in trying to plan/advertise one off trips. Your 90 minute wait at Abingdon had nothing to do with traffic density on the WCML and everything to do with platform availability at your destination, which I suspect was Edinburgh Waverley. In theory you could have arrived there an hour earlier, but if there was not a platform available to accomodate a terminating charter at that time then it had to wait somewhere. I'm not sure how you try to second guess such constraints when you plan these trips a year or more in advance. What amazes me about this whole bussiness is not that demand for trips is still so great, despite the headaches (heartaches?), but that organisers still have the patience to attempt them at all. There must be an easier way of making a living. I very much doubt that there is an answer to the issue of times other than not to run at all.

Peter James

 

I am not sure that the glossy enthusiast magazines really have an investigative role. There are some trained professional dirt diggers and rottweillers amongst them still, although not many, but they and the editors face two difficulties.

Firstly the enthusiast press is profitable but not massively so, and so their publishers will not support them in a defamation action, which in the UK under current law is a huge challenge to anything resembling freedom of expression. Things will be easier in a year or so, when the new less oppressive defamation legislation is enacted – the painfully careless and extravagant 6024 nonsense could not be repeated under the new law, which is good news (if only on the grounds that anything which is bad news for lawyers is usually good for the rest of us). In the meantime, the journalists err on the side of caution, and who can blame them.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the readers don’t seem to want it anyway. Steam is many readers’ “happy place” and the bloody reality is of no interest to them. Who cares that the steam train they travel in – or stand in a field photographing - is not covering even its basic costs? Many of the tweedier chaps of our happy throng like their journalists to know their place and not be rude or insubordinate. Some quaintly cling to the belief that “the authorities” know what they are doing and should be allowed to get on with it without public scrutiny or molestation – see the adverse reaction in this forum over the NRM and Flying Scotsman when one of the better rottweillers had a go at Colonel Steve.

We get the railway press we deserve. If you want serious investigation, mature reflective ideas well expressed, and a platform to make a difference from, these days you will have to start your own magazine.

Best

Neil

 

Good couple of posts Neil. Another reason, why would a magazine write an article saying how poor a tour company is and how their tours never run as advertised, when the same tour company pays quite a lot of money for full page adverts every month?