recreating the past or enjoying preservation

I am just thankful that I went to a South London Comprehensive

 

Just do a full size version of the model railway mineral wagon with a lift-out section and a sprinkling of coal on the top. Would also reduce train weights etc.

 

Now that's just condescending, arrogant nonsense. The fact is that nobody can tell with any degree of certainty what the future holds for the heritage railway movement. Not only that but I'd argue that a survival strategy for one railway may not necessarily work for another - too many variables.

 

Paul,
You are now suggesting a Manor is right for a P&DSR service yet for post after post you have advocated the use of small engines where they can do the job. Most P&DSR services can actually be handled by a GWR 45XX 2-6-2T. They have the T.E. and boiler capacity to do the job at 25mph but they are being thrashed and working at a very low thermodynamic efficiency so, which is right, a Manor with capacity to spare but at the peak of its efficiency or a 45XX operating at the high end of its ability and low end of its efficiency?
I'd actually suggest that a class 6 is the best bet for most T&DSR services in the overall scheme of things but they are a bit thin on the ground.

 

It may well have true some time ago that 2-6-2T Prairie locos were fine for the Dartmouth Steam Railway but no longer. That is why they are laid up. The Manor and the 2-8-0T's are fine locos doing what the railway requires. Anyone who knows the line will be aware of the steep grades and the current locos handle things very well - even rescuing failed visiting locos and stock or more than one occasion.

Seven or eight cars are usual but there are two other factors which preclude the use of the Prairies. The first is this. The morning trains from Kingswear stop on the uphill climb at Greenway Halt. Because the afternoon trains are strengthened they do not: there are operational reasons for this.
The second is also linked to the first: quite often, especially during the main operating season, it is not unusual for eleven or more cars being hauled from Kingswear. A Prairie would have real trouble I feel. The class 5 4-6-0 is still under overhaul.

 

I have this evening discovered something silly - just to wind up any perfectionists. Having studied a number of pics any preserved GWR tender loco with a front steam heat cock and bag is wrong. Coaches always go next to the tender acording to Swindon. Somewhere deep in the memory of drivers tales they allways got complaints of no heat when they got a tender instead of a tank for a tender first run.

Do we make our customers freeze in winter - no we dont - the guard and TTIs appreciate it too

 

So the only thing a preserved railway has any chance of getting right is the sight, sound, heat and smell of a working steam locomotive. But it is possible to argue that nothing else matters as much.

 

There are plenty around who would suggest that a "Manor" is a small engine in the context of the gradients and loads found here. Needless to say I am not one of them! The T&DSR strikes me as a commendably hard nosed, commercial organisation, the very antithesis of "wouldn't it be nice".

PH

 

Maybe posters are chasing a dream. I would like to be able to recreate my own youth - well most of it. Unfortunately that is clearly impossible. You don't require Hollywood to distort history, time will always remove elements of historical accuracy.

Miff is probably correct, at best we can only recreate certain aspects, giving future generations a feel for how steam railways were operated and what they looked, sounded and smelt like. We should be grateful for that. Do posters seriously consider that the historical railway companies had operating procedures and systems that were identical in time and space ?

 

You might be suprised how slowly railway procedures changed in the steam ers. I have or had access to five rule books. Southern Railway 1930s, BR 1950s (the Black Book), K&ESR circa 1992, the big railway rule book http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/default.aspx and the SVR rule book. The SR and BR are almost word for word. The KESR was in more modern language but sensibly similar to the BR rules. Whilst formatted differently and influenced by modern traction themes from the SR rule book are still clear in the big railways rules and SVR puts back those things relating to steam traction whilst reflecting modern H&S.. One particular item is virtually identical in all 5 rule books - handsignals for shunting. Dont change what works.

Rule books and operating procedures grow almost organically, mostly as the result of incidents or misunderstandings. You have an oops, analyse it, learn from it and modify or create rules and operating procedures. What has happened in recent years is some of the more risky procedures have been curtailed. For example at the old Euston suburban sets were stabled on a sloping siding. When the time came to get them back in the platform gravity rather than a loco was used. The automatic brake would be released and when the road was set into the platform the handbrake was released and the coaches would trundle off with speed being controlled on the handbrake. Gravity shunting was part and parcel of the steam experience but quite rightly would not pass muster in todays risk adverse world - unless you did a risk assessment for it.

Hopefully we operate a safer railway than in 1930 but much of what we recreate by operating steam traction is prety close to earlier times.

 

So did i Wandsworth school in Sutherland grove, which one did you go to.

 

Well, whatever the classification is of 75014 I have to say that it is not my favourite loco on the line and I have not been at all concerned that it is still in no rush to be re-entered into service. Maybe it will look better if it is eventually outshopped in a green livery but I am not certain that will be so.
In fact I have never been that interested in BR designed products. At least the Manor looked like a GWR loco when it was green.

 

Forest Hill in Dakers Rd

 

I'm left wondering what the hordes of oversized new builds being built for heritage line use are! All the projects destined primarily for heritage line use that I can think of are class 5 and smaller and most are eminently well matched to their likely employment: the BR Class 3, the G5 and the NER Equivalent of the Holden 2-4-2T were all staple motive power over the Whitby & Pickering at various points in time. Granges would have found as much favour as class 5s had any survived. The 47XX, Saint, Hall, County, Patriot, P2s and Clan will all be predominantly main line engines, and the Brighton Atlantic is a medium sized engine well suited to the Bluebell. If they can all be funded I'm sure that they'll all find suitable work.

 

Ah know it well, went there a few times in the eighties when i worked for British Telecom and my HQ was Rushey Green Telephone Exchange in Canadian Ave.

 

Aren't we moving the goalposts here? Earlier on you criticised railways for not "getting in right" historically. Now you're praising the T&DSR for it's commercial awareness in spite of it being a railway that I'd argue most certainly doesn't "get it right" historically. Named tank locos, freight locos in passenger livery, named carriages etc. I have no problem with this but if it's OK for one railway then surely it's OK for them all.

 

Moving the goalposts or taking a reality check ?

The T&DSR works with what is has; the locomotives perform their task (i.e. hauling service trains), the company has a maintenance schedule that sees its fleet changing round as locomotives enter works for overhaul and overhauled locos are released to replace them, the public is happy with the product and - as a commercial operation - it can and DOES make commercial decisions. Heritage lines on the other hand are - in many cases - men playing trains being projected into a commercial world that they have little experience of and are blown by the needs of commercial activities and the pressures of enthusiasts wanting "something different"; enthusiasts wanting something but unwilling to pay the appropriate costs. Note that many of the latest new builds are for main line operation although some groups have - wisely - included heritage line operation in their income figures as acknowledgement that its main line activity will not be for the full length of its boiler ticket.

Curious - isn't it - that the NRM operated 3440 / 3717 on the main line for around 5 years before limiting it to the easier life on heritage lines but then - as some critics claim - what does the NRM know about operating live steam locomotives - it has enough problems displaying dead ones !

I think the time has come for many heritage lines to accept that, in the commercial world in which they now operate, historical accuracy and running trains for commercial reasons are going to involve compromise and how far you compromise depends on which is the best option for your long term future. Even the production of new locos such as the Standard 3 (82045); GWR Grange (6880) and the F5 have at least been considered for heritage line operation from the start and not simply as an income generator once the cash generation from main-line activities begins to reduce but that again highlights the fact that in some quarters a new sense of reality has broken out.

 

Didn't say I particularly "liked" the T&DSR for all the reasons you cite. It's about the only railway I have ever deliberately sought out a Mk.1 to travel in and as for authenticity they don't seem particularly to try! However it is businesslike and, in contrast to some places, is not looking for excuses to run bigger stuff than it needs to. See Fred Kerr's posting above.

P.H.

 

I think you missed my point Fred. It seems young Mr. Hitch can't make his mind up when it comes to praising/criticising railways. One minute a line will be criticised for "not getting it right" historically but the next minute another line will be praised even though its approach to history is equally "not right." They all do a good job of preserving artefacts of the past but how they choose to display/operate them is up to them. What works for one will not necessarily work for another. In the absence of a crystal ball, only time will tell which is the better approach for long term survival and even then different railways may find that different solutions work for them.