recreating the past or enjoying preservation

As I suspect you will always want to have the last word I am going to let you have that, regardless.

PH

 

Is there some other kind of opinion?

 

might not be a personal opinion, might be a political opinion adopted by a group of people etc...

Anyway, I've been watching this thread with interest, I am a little confused as to PH's ideal steam railway, before this thread, I thought it was the IofWR, for it's historical accuracy (despite all the inaccuracies pointed out earlier), yet now he seems to be praising the Dartmouth railway (I forget it's official name now) for being so economically aware, yet we all know it is one of the least accurate railways around regards liveries and naming of locos etc. You simply cannot have it both ways. if it is too historically accurate, "hard core" steam enthusiasts will love it, but you won't get any visits from the public, thus less revenue. if you make it entirely commercial, then you'll get plenty of public, but not many steam enthusiasts. Either way, you'll be missing out on a large demographic. As the saying about pleasing some of the people all of the time etc.

You seem to turn your nose up at both concepts PH, I can't fathom it out. Perhaps your ideal heritage railway would be one that is totally accurate (apart from the bits you don't like (like BR sandwiches) - obviously) yet still appeals to the pubic because all of the public will appreciate the care and attention to detail, and not care it isn't as enjoyable as the steam railway down the road that holds Thomas the tank days. that's just living in cloud cuckoo land. I was also amused you want a railway to have historical running except when it doesn't agree with your other belief that the smallest loco possible should be used - it wasn't always like that - Bulleid light Pacifics on locals!!!!! Now I know very little about economic coal consumption, but is it a possibility a small loco working hard could be consuming more coal than a larger loco working middle of the range?

 

Yes but it is always a personal decision whether to adopt such an opinion, so no different really. Since I posted my question it occurred to me that a 'professional opinion' is another thing entirely, but there have been none of those in this thread yet. Describing someone else's opinion as 'just' a personal opinion struck me as a little strange, that's all, since it couldn't really be anything else.

 

As an active volunteer several things that always makes me laugh about the movement are as follows:

People complaining about tender first running - (photos like this show it was a sight of the times; I just don't think it was popular to photograph) https://www.flickr.com/groups/steamlocomotives/pool/with/5532629840/lightbox/

Livery Debates/comments - No matter what colour a loco is in, it always is the wrong colour shade/configuration to them…. its as if the person was the paint shed master at swindon their knowledge of paint schemes.

 

Can't say I've ever heard any of those complaints Hurricane, admittedly I'm not a front line volunteer (I paint things the wrong shade in the workshop!), but I do often take the train to the workshop 'cos I can, and among all sorts of things I've heard, never any of those - where do you volunteer?

edit - just remembered, I've heard people complaining about tender first running, but only because they can't get a good photo, seems reasonable enough to me, unless you mean people complaining about tender first running not being right, in which case, never heard of that.

 

I think I get some of what PH is trying to say. Although the IoW and Dartmouth railways are very different types of operation one thing they seem to have in common is a clear vision of what they want to be AND a long term plan of how to get there. Anything that doesn't fit both the vision and the plan doesn't happen. I'm not sure all railways can say that.

 

Thanks Miff. Just so. Add to this an avoidance of junk in the public eye, absence of self-delusion that express motive power is required to operate services and you have a couple of very sensibly run organisations.

PH

 

It is generally the case, regardless of industry, that those organisations that have clarity of purpose prosper. For example both BMW and Hyundai are successful and "stick to their knitting" but they produce very different "jumpers"! So it is with railways as I commented in my much longer post yesterday.

 

Thanks Miff. Just so. Add to this an avoidance of junk in the public eye, absence of self-delusion that express motive power is required to operate services and you have a couple of very sensibly run organisations.

That is a very sweeping generalisation though, isn't it? Take the NYMR, for example: in BR Days most trains in later years were hauled by class 3/4/5 power (2-6-2, 2-6-4 tanks and B1s) for 4/5 coach trains and 5 coach trains were banked from Grosmont to Goathland. Nowadays, trains routinely consist of seven coaches (because for most of the year that is what is neeeded) and are not banked. The motive power is broadly the same (B1, Black 5, Standard 4s), and in other threads Steve has demonstrated that class 4/5 engines are working close to their limits. The use of bigger class 7/8 engines, when they are available, is not unreasonable, particularly in order to have something in hand for the heavier dining train. This is not prototypical, I grant you but a sensible operating precaution. More economical than steaming a banker!

 

I'll admit I quite enjoy seeing railway junk in the public eye. My ideal preserved railway image would be something like an ex Col. Stephens line in the 1940s complete with decrepit buildings and rotting rolling stock. In fact the KESR was a bit like that in the mid 1970s when all the stock used, including Terriers, Maunsell and Birdcage carriages and the GWR railcar was pretty much in as-withdrawn condition (with a lick of paint). However I fully accept it couldn't go on that way!

 

Mid-Hants for one. Schools, Nelson, WC, all in regular use, all express locos (though not the largest). Smallest engine in the fleet at present is a class 4.

 

Those railways who roster express motive power seldom have a choice as that's what they've got. You cannot change that in the short term. . Withdraw all locos above Class 5 from heritage railways use and you get motive power shortages in some areas or do you have a strategic reserve of smaller locos just waiting to fill the void? If anyone's delusional it's you. Take Tornado - a Class 8 but it draws the crowds to heritage railways in huge numbers and more than justifies the expense of hiring it. Should 4472 ever visit heritage lines then the same could be said of that. I recall 60800's visit to the NNR some years ago. The extra visitors it generated more than justified its hire. Double headed Spamcans on the Bluebell - a good example of "overkill" in your eyes no doubt - resulted in the Bluebell's best "non Thomas" event up to that date and I believe the visit of 60800 topped even that and so the story continues.

 

Some years ago I was talking to the loco superintendent of a well known heritage railway regarding the best size of loco for his line. He relied that it was not an easy question to answer. He did say that certain using smaller locos can be false economy as they often working closer to their limit and thus suffering more wear and tear than a larger loco working well within itself. He also pointed out that as long as a larger loco isn't being fired simply to cover the grate, coal consumption isn't that unreasonable compared to a small loco being thrashed. Whether he's right or not will no doubt be open to question but I note his successors have continued a broadly similar loco policy since his retirement.

 

It may be a bit of a cheek to mention it but I have seen comment in print that Merchant Navys were referred to as mixed traffic, or passenger and express freight locos to apease those who were concerned at extravigance during the war

I'll get me coat

 

Regarding barrows and trucks with suitcases and other railway paraphanalia, it is worth remembering that since the age of steam Britain has become a litigious and Health & Safety orientated place. There are limits to what can be placed on platforms and in buildings that do not represent some sort of 'hazard' to Joe Public. Large items and those not easily moved, are more favoured I guess for those reasons. With emphasis, by most Heritage style railways, solely on passenger movements - making them comuter lines, I suppose, in some respects - it is often overlooked that most trains in the steam era did have luggage, newspapers and parcels loaded and unloaded at stations. Many older folks remember those times and I suggest it is a large part of their memories.

One of the comments often heard on the Paignton to Kingswear line is about the train length. Even though they are only travelling a relatively short distance, the train length conveys the thoughts of a long journey to them. Such is the aspect seen through our rose tinted specs when we are wearing them.