Riveting, bolting or welding?

Hi folks,

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9078

DB901203 is a "Weltrol EJC" (one of 6 built and no more than 2 survivors, that's if DB901200 is still around which I don't know). We believe that, divisible boiler sets aside, it is the longest wagon in preservation at about 75'. It currently resides at Swithland on the GCR where it has been sitting at the end of a siding with one bogie out for a while now, having been removed initially to facilitate a vacuum cylinder overhaul. One end of the wagon was shotblasted and spray primed last year, and with help from GCR volunteers and some Interfleet apprentices, it has now progressed to the point that it is about one final coat of gloss away from being ready for the bogie to go back in, other than a few awkward fiddly bits which are mostly not a problem. We can then repeat the exercise at the other end.

The one thing holding things up is the chain box floor. This box sits between the frames above the bogie and is intended for the stowage of securing chains when not in use. The floor of this area (originally the imperial equivalent of 6mm plate) did not take kindly to being shotblasted and I finished it off the other day with a cutting disc, so we now need to replace it. It's about 6' x 2'6" give-or-take, and was originally held in place by 38(!) rivets, which go through the toe of the frame structure (an I-beam, I think) and in some cases also through a thick strengthening plate below.

The easiest solution would be to weld a new plate in place, leaving well alone with the rivets, but this (a) would not be original and (b) risks the rivets coming loose when the remnant of the thin plate finally oxidises, which can't be too many years away.

The most difficult solution would be to burn out the rivets, drill 38 holes in the new plate and hot rivet it in place. Clearly this is a specialist job, and if anyone fancies quoting for it I would like to hear from them. The facilities on site are not great, for this sort of work, and the wagon clearly can't be moved.

The in-between option is to use high tensile bolts, possibly dome-headed to maintain the appearance of the original rivets. Again, given that this involves disturbing the original structure, I'd like to seek specialist help.

If anyone knows a contractor who would be competent and willing to price up for either option, can you drop me a PM please? I can do a certain amount of prep work myself, which might speed things along. Ideally I'd like to get this done in the next 4 months or so, so that we can finish painting that end and put the bogie back in in the spring.

Thanks,
Phil

 

Count yourself lucky its only 38, there are 250 ish in the floor of our chaired sleeper wagon that we did a couple of years back. If the plate is badly wasted my advice would be to remove and replace it, retaining the original is all well and good but if its original rust then really its better in the skip, if you can get someone to show you how to rivet it can be very therapeutic, and isn't hugely difficult, the hardest part is getting the old ones out!

 

We have just finished work on a Lowmac 217315.
This involved a complete replacement of the gridwork of I Beams under the load deck.
It was not possible to locate a source of the original size due to it being obsolete. (Appears it was a Coal Board standard size but no one else's)
We opted instead for a size up meaning an increase in depth of about 25mm with proportional increases in web and width.
This can be seen in the first photo were a packing strip has been needed to support the ends of the timbers between new beams.
The load rings have since been cut off to enable a better fit to the decking.
After consultation with the Traction and Rolling Stock Standards people on the NYMR were we discussed Rivets, Bolts and Huck Bolts we came to the agreement of Bolting.
All existing rivets were burnt out, holes reamed to size, new beams installed and bolted up with nyloc nuts on M25 bolts.
The fabrication of the steelwork and installation was carried out by a local Steel Fabricators for a very reasonable cost.

The position of the connections is exactly the same as the originals as is the style of bracketing to all angles.
In the shot of the finished wagon you can just make out that the bottom row of rivets have an occasional bolt head showing instead either side of the vertical braces, that is the only external indication.
This wagon will be in use over the winter on works trains carrying excavators and sleepers.
A further deck of sleepers may be fitted to ease access for machines bringing the load deck up to about 100mm below the sides.

It is not part of the demonstration freight fleet but is in the Civil Engineers fleet.

 

Go for original...

Burning out rivets is child's play, just needs an angle grinder, pistol drill, oxy-propane and a drift & lump hammer. ....just a bit disheartening when there's a lot (38 is nothing!).
If you've got access to drill through the existing holes into the new plate then drilling & bolting up prior to rivetting is simple enough when armed with a maggy-base rotabroach.
The tricky bit is putting the new rivets in, as that requires access to suitable guns and/or backjam, but if you've already done all the grunt work to get everything bolted up ready for rivetting, then getting a door-to-door contracting rivetting team to glue it together is probably easier and cost effective.

When I did my boiler a team of three of us averaged around 50 seconds per 3/4" boiler rivet. That was heating rivet, putting into position, backjamming, rivetting head and repositioning boiler ready for next rivet...

...and for reference, all the removal of rivets, positioning new boiler barrel and drilling/bolting up was done located in the corner of a muddy field in winter with one (long) 13A mains extension lead, and a bottle trolley that kept sinking in the mud! Lol. You don't need posh facilities, just determination and a pioneering spirit.

 

Hello,
Rivets.......!

Nick

 

How about using 'Tension control bolts' just google the name for more info, they are used as a replacement for rivets in bridge repairs and other related structural applications. We've used them very successfully for dragboxes and other such applications.

 

The VSOE people have used Huckbolts for fastening in dragboxes on their Pullman underframes in the past, I believe (and I think they are probably the same as "Tension control bolts) and I suspect they would be easier than riveting. If you went for the welding option I think you would probably need to have a suitably coded welder

 

Hi folks,
Thanks for the suggestions (and keep 'em coming).
Welding probably wouldn't need to be coded as it's not structural until we disturb the old rivets.
That said my inclination is to go for rivets if we can and bolts if we can't. One of my co-owners agrees (well, he persuaded me really); I haven't discussed it with the other yet, he is probably reading this and thinking "what the..."!
I don't mind a certain amount of grunt work and am quite handy with the oxy-propane gear but I don't have a pistol drill (or an air supply) unless I can borrow one from someone. I think our S&T have a magnetic rotabase drill although I doubt they'd trust me with it so I may need to ply them with beer. (Afterwards!). Drilling the plate in situ would also involve drilling upwards, which might be tricky.
Clearly our loco shed can do riveting but they also have a shed full of restoration/overhaul projects so time might be a factor, hence the request for suggested contractors.

It's just occurred to me that I could get the replacement lashing rings riveted onto Conflat B737695 at the same time, if I got sufficiently organised...

 

Actually, on the basis that the plate you'll probably be burning against is scrap anyway you can probably blow most of the rivet head away with the gas, leaving only just the final finishing with the grinder - it doesn't matter if you scour out a bit of the surrounding plate when it's going to be scrapped anyway.

The handheld pistol drill is just to put a pilot hole through the centre of the rivet to give you something to start burning from. It wants to be mains powered rather than battery, but other than that doesn't need to be anything posh. If you've got a mag-base drill that accepts twist drill bits then that would be more than adequate.

The process is to 1) loose the head, this will also reveal the centre of the rivet (not necessarily the centre of where the head was!), 2) drill a pilot hole through the shank of the rivet (around 5 or 6mm is adequate), 3) Start heating down the centre of the rivet and burn out a "+" shape from the centre (or a "Y" shape). There's no need to break out of the edge of the rivet, just go as close as you're comfortable with. 4) With a drift that's just under the rivet diameter and a lump hammer just try bonking out whilst still hot. If it's tight then don't worry, leave it to cool a bit whilst you work on the next rivet along... Having cooled they have the opportunity to contract a bit into the void you burnt in the centre - it isn't a huge amount, but if you now reheat the rivet to bright red and try drifting it out it is likely to move a lot easier than the first time you tried.

This snapette shows the stages when I was taking my boiler apart:

​

When it comes to drilling and bolting up ready for rivetting, a mag-base makes life a lot easier. If you can do it in situ even more so. Personally I prefer a rotabroach cutter to a twist drill bit. Especially on larger sizes a rotabroach will whizz through with a lot less effort and will leave a very clean neat hole. Given a wide flat area the mag-base will happily stick upside down, the problem might be if there is restricted room. You really want to go from the existing holes, as there's no guarantee the spacing is the same between them all! If you can't get the mag-base into position underneath, then try turning a bush that goes into the existing rivet hole with a small pilot hole through the centre. That then means you can use a handheld pistol drill to put a small hole through from underneath, which will then act as a marker to put the full size hole through in the other direction from above. It's more faff and bother, but with care should give accurate results. Don't forget to keep bolting up tight as you go along to ensure everything is clamped tight where ultimately it will be rivetted.

As I suggested above, to put in 38 rivets is likely to be less than three quarters of an hour work once the rivetting team are in the swing of things... However, the first task is to determine the length of rivet needed. Doing that on paper in advance is a start, but you want to cut one to length and check by fitting it before doing any others! That way if it wants to be a little longer or shorter you can adjust until it's just right - then cut all the other rivets to length before cracking on with the bulk of the work. As for an air supply - you can hire a trailer (ie. road-repair) compressor for rivetting, so not having anything already yourself needn't be a major problem.

 

phil you have a compressor I donated a hydrovane to the cause a few years a go just needs an air receiving tank I believe you stored it in one of your box vans, god knows which one though.
Cheers

Colin

 

BR were using Huckbolts in place of rivets for rolling stock repairs in the 60's and later so using themprobably can be regarded as 'heritage' if you're going to paint it in BR livery.

 

Huck bolts are in use in the track itself at the majority of Insulated Block Joints to be found on main lines.
Also one or two may be found on preserved lines.

 

They also built this Weltrol as an all-riveted design as late as 1964! Which makes it something of a curiosity. The only welding I have found is on a pipe bracket which attaches below this rotten plate, and around the edges of the chequerplate floor.

 

Yes Colin, you're right, and I do know where it is, though as you say we are short of an air tank. I also have no idea how it works, maybe you could pop by and show us at some point.

Hope you are well.
PMH

 

Thanks for the detail, it actually looks like rather good fun but I bet it will take me a hell of a lot longer than it did you, starting from not knowing what I'm doing!

 

Dunna worry.
From a position of not having done it before, and not having anyone to show me how to do it, my introduction was burning out screwed boiler stays without nicking/damaging the threads in the boiler!

It's one thing being told the theory, another putting it into practice for the first time! Lol Even that's pretty simple once you get the hang of it. The key is not to be afraid of the gas and not to linger too slowly. If you're bold and confident you heat up the stay without getting the surrounding plate up to temperature, so you can wash away the stay material until you just start to see the tips of the thread get exposed, then quickly swap to a chisel to collapse in the rest of the stay.

After that, doing rivets was dead easy, no need for any 'precision'.
Foundation ring rivets are a bit more of a pain, but "normal" length rivets are Ok.
That picture above also includes a load of countersunk rivets. They're a bit more technical, but once again you can wash away the countersunk head with the gas without damaging the countersink in the surrounding plate if you're bold and swift - the liquid metal just washes away down the hole in the middle.

Yes, I know it's nothing to do with railways, but there are some more piccies of what I was getting up to in <this Flickr Album>. Size wise it's much the same as many a narrow gauge loco. Before I started rivets & rivetting seemed daunting, but in reality it's nothing special.

 

An interesting story in pictures, there. Did you make your own stays and studs?

 

Thanks, 'fraid there's no notes or explanation as I uploaded them to Flickr just to link to Facepest (where the comments were posted)

Yep: All screwcut manually on the lathe, with the stays sized to be a 'squeak' tight stilson fit in the existing holes - the joys of full form thread cutting tips makes that easier.
I think in the end I'd got the speed up to 370ish rpm - everyone else in my friend's workshop whose lathe I was using knew not to distract me until the half-nuts were disengaged!! Lol.

101 years old and still not "restored", only repaired and maintained to keep it going - which it does, travels everywhere under its own steam.