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Rother Valley Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by nine elms fan, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    While all this progress is very exciting, one thing that has puzzled me is the purpose of this turntable. Other railways have installed turntables for a number of reasons, but none of them seem to apply to the K&ESR/RVR.
    • Turning of locomotives used on the railway's own services. Not much point unless you are going to install one at Tenterden too. Furthermore, although 3/32670 and 6619 ran smokebox first out of Tenterden (as did 7822 when it paid a visit a few years back), the preference usually seems to be for locos to run smokebox first up the big climb out of Rolvenden.
    • Evening out wear on carriage wheelsets. This is a particular problem on sharply curved lines and the K&ESR certainly has its bends, but this is usually regarded as an added bonus of a turntable installed for other reasons rather than the primary reason for putting one in.
    • Main line specials. This struck me as being the least implausible reason for the turntable, but even here, there are questions. Firstly, would there be much of a market for the odd excursion from, say, London to Tenterden or Bodiam? The only heritage lines thus far regularly visited by main line specials year after year all run to seaside towns (Swanage, Kingswear, Minehead) Maybe I'm underestimating the tourist potential of Tenterden and Bodiam , but as a comparison, after the initial euphoria of opening to East Grinstead, the Bluebell Line doesn't receive many visits from main line specials now. Furthermore, whether or not the loco on the hypothetical through train to Tenterden comes off at Robertsbridge or works through onto the RVR/KESR, there's no need to turn it when it resumes its journey over NR metals. If it arrives from the Hastings direction, it could continue northwards towards Tunbridge Wells and vice versa for trains arriving from the north.

    So I'm intrigued! One possibility which seems even less plausible is the use of Robertsbridge as a stabling and starting point for main line excursions. Admittedly, Hastings Diesels Ltd manages to wash its face with a few excursions every year which pick up passengers from stations along the Tonbridge-Hastings line, but we're talking about filling a much longer train which probably would have to run as far as Tunbridge Wells with very few people on board as the Sussex High Weald is not exactly densely populated (and thank goodness - as it happens to be where I live!)

    Maybe I've missed something obvious but if anyone could shed any light on the thinking behind this turntable installation, I'd be most grateful as it has baffled me.
     
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  2. 45045

    45045 New Member

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    You missed evening out sun damage on paintwork

    Sent from my M2011K2G using Tapatalk
     
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I guess that is in the same category as evening out tyre wear on carriages.

    I’m slightly perplexed about the rationale as well, though I guess you could add one other to @John Petley’s list, which is that if you are going to add a turntable at all, installing during a period when the line is in any case being built is almost certainly cheaper than adding it later. Which doesn’t explain why it is needed, but might explain why it is happening now.

    Tom
     
  4. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    I had a turntable I didn't need on my 00 gauge model railway but I wanted one!
     
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  5. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    Although 'less plausible' that is exactly the thinking - if you look at the planning application to Rother District Council RR/2020/2493/P the supporting document states [in part]:-

    This is an opportunity for both preserving a historical railway structure and bringing commercial activity to the site. Starting points for mainline steam excursion trains arelimited to locations with ready access to steam engine turning facilities and secure overnight stabling within reasonable distance. Excursion train operation in the South of England is therefore currently largely limited to trains starting and finishing in London as there are very few opportunities for turning and the overnight stabling of steamlocomotives in the South of England central and coastal regions.

    RVR already has a connection to the Network Rail Main line, opened by Sir Peter Hendy NR Chairman in December 2016. Main line steam excursion train operators have expressed interest in the development of such a facility at Robertsbridge. Locomotives stabled at Robertsbridge would trip out from there to the train startingpoint and return for servicing and overnight housing.

    The location of the Engine Shed is revised to allow the turntable to be sited where it isaccessible for visitors to Robertsbridge Junction Station. Experience of other railways is that the sight of 100 tons of steam loco like “Tor
    nado” being turned by hand, drawsspectators to the site. Its design is amended from that already approved to allow it to fit within the confines of the site.

    RVR have a grant from the Heritage Railway Trust to part fund the project.
     
  6. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    The blog entry from when it was dismantled, at Hither Green has some close up photos of the outer ring and the supporting rail as it was there.
    http://rvrailway.blogspot.com/2020/04/turntable-stage-2-dismantling.html

    There's some more interesting design details at the next link including a video which shows 3D modelling of the locking mechanism and also includes a photo said to be of the turntable at Cannon Street, with the outriggers decked over, before it was moved to Hither Green in 1933. When they cleared all the vegetation the RVR crew found a very large spanner lying in the pit, for the big bolts on top of the pivot.
    http://rvrailway.blogspot.com/2021/10/modelling-turntable-for-robertsbridge.html
     
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  7. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Your meticulous study of the planning documents over the years has enabled you quickly to pinpoint the relevant section which answers my query. Thank you for this. For those of us who haven't been reading the documents, it's a bit of a surprise, but very welcome news as it means that we could see more main line steam down here in the south of England, even if, unlike the excursions run by Hastings Diesels Ltd, they probably won't be picking up at Robertsbridge or Etchingham, both of which are only a few miles away from me. Indeed, the wording of the planning application suggests that possibly only locos and support coaches would be using the new facilities at Robertsbridge, although I presume that there would be space somewhere to stable a rake of carriages.

    The other welcome feature of the explanation for the turntable and other associated works is that they are in a sense separate from the project to reconnect Robertsbridge to Bodiam and therefore don't require the missing two miles or so to be reinstated before being brought into use.
     
  8. Fireline

    Fireline Well-Known Member

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    There is a plan for a further shed, opposite the platform, to safely stable a 5 car set. The idea is that trains will be able to start from Robertsbridge as well as Tenterden. This will involve one or two steam engines being based at Robertsbridge, in the same way that engines are at New Bridge or Bishop's Lydeard. The turntable allows for engines from the mainline, KESR locos, stock and On Track machines to be turned. It doesn't meant that we HAVE to use it, but we will have it there if we need to.

    I see very little coincidence in the thought that one of the backers of the RVR owns the odd mainline engine or two....
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    It would mean a lot of LE & POB moves, as the nearest place to stable coaches would be either St Leonards, , or Eastbourne, and the only use i can see would be for turning an Loco that's arrived at Eastbourne and is returning via lewes and Haywards heath, its still a lot of miles though, as a tour that runs via the Hastings line, can always return via Rye and Ashford,
     
  10. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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  11. Dead Sheep

    Dead Sheep Member

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    Can somebody remind me when the TWAO Inquiry is due to finally report?
     
  12. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    As regards 'a rake of carriages', the siding behind the Mainline platform is rather short. Mainline railtours tend to be quite long.
    Shunting a rail tour set into Robertsbridge Jn would probably mean splitting into four or five coach sections, each of which would fully occupy the platform or loop lines. I can't see that happening myself.
     
  13. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Should be any time now. The provisional 6 months is up, that's not to say it could be longer for any number of reasons.
     
  14. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Why would anyone want to do that anyway?
    Logistically, taking mainline carriage loads of people and packing them onto a set of heritage railway carriages would be 'interesting' (unless you had a similar number of carriages available). Not to mention the time that would take (have you ever tried to herd cats? :D)
    Far better to take the whole trainload along the line to somewhere you have the facilities to deal with the train and passenger numbers (and good catering facilities ;)). Ideally using a change of motive power to do so, but that itself can be challenging (taking into consideration braking systems, and availability of sufficiently powerful locomotive(s) (Would you steam something specifically for that one task?)).
     
  15. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    Geographical constraints prevent a direct run of 'the whole trainload' from the mainline onto the RVR.
    The post which I replied to mentioned storing a set of coaches off a rail tour.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think the site constraints at Roberstbridge are such that an incoming charter cannot run direct onto the branch in one go - it requires splitting and re-forming.

    As for hearding cats: on the Bluebell, when we have an incoming charter, our practice has been to provide our own train and transfer the passengers at the first station, which is Kingscote. That is a consequence of station capacity - it is easier to deal with a 10+ coach train at Kingscote than at Sheffield Park. Given most charter trains have at least a support vehicle and maybe a couple or more low capacity dining carriages, in practice passengers from a 10+ coach charter will fit fairly easily into a 6-7 coach train on the heritage line. Doing so leaves the charter carriages to be serviced where they don’t interrupt normal operations.

    Obviously the geography varies from line to line. To take a counter example, on the WSR Minehead has a huge long platform and a convenient bay for their own service trains, so taking a long charter right through does not present the same headaches it does at Sheffield Park. So the operating pattern has to work with the geography and facilities available.

    Tom
     
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  17. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    As I understand it sometime in the Summer.
     
  18. alexl102

    alexl102 Member

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    I've often wondered how heritage lines manage with incoming charters as often the charters are twice as long as the heritage railway's usual train length.

    How many heritage lines have a station with a platform capable of holding 10-12 coaches?
     
  19. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    As far as standard gauge is concerned, Minehead and Kingswear are the only examples that spring to mind.
     
  20. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think Kidderminster can do 10, although not terribly convenient for mainline charters requiring a reversal. Cheltenham Racecourse can comfortably hold 12 (In fact I think only Minehead is longer), but is lacking a mainline connection!
     

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