Royal Duchy 2015

And 34067 has put in some excellent performances over the Devon banks!! No one knows the real reason for the stall today, it could have been crew issues and not the locos fault. Everyone is quick to blame the engine without knowing the real reasons


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Err - have you actually read what you wrote there?

 

Indeed, but funnily its always the same engine. Tangmere is a scruffy, pig ugly, smelly, smoky, clanking beast completely unable to make a sonorous noise if it tried. And for all these reasons I love it to bits, watching it obliterate Weybridge the other evening in the most obnoxious way possible leaving wide eyed with shock and awe onlookers in its path still raises the hairs on the back of my neck. Every Tangmere trip has the tingle of anticipated drama about it, and you just know that during the course of the year, its all going to go spectacularly wrong or the thing is just going to sit down and sulk. Misunderstood by everyone but one minder it may be, but with a cold practical business and commercial hat on, you really can't afford to allow such idiosyncrasies to continue on the modern railway.
Something needs to be done, at best and the least worse option, is to not allow the thing out unaccompanied by back up power again, the easiest most sensible solution would be to withdraw its mainline ticket. (I am sure there are many on the network considering or would wish that). If I were WCRC I would be dangling the "minder" option right now.

I am sure this post will be met with howls of anguish and statements about how Tangmere has done this and that magnificently, but every one of them will ignore its proven catalogue of woe and disaster.

I want to continue seeing it on the mainline, but you will have to accept some compromises to allow that state of affairs to continue.

 

Yes I have read what I written Tangmere is a difficult loco to drive but in the right hands and drivers who really understand the engine get on fine with her, they are also a couple of other drivers who don't seem to have any problems driving it. Whatever someone said about Ray Churchill looking tired and grumpy at the turntable, he most certainly wasn't tired and grumpy when he arrived and left Par, talking to everyone who wanted to.

 

A very good post IMHO.

The following is based on extensive timing experiences in the 1960s and many talks with loco crews about original Bulleids. I cannot comment on Tangmere yesterday as I do not know the circumstances.

I had some superb performances with them back in the day. Not just the 98-99 mph and 100 mph runs on the level with light loads, but heavy loads on climbs and one of my best up ACE runs with perhaps the very best Salisbury top link driver, Fred Hoare, who liked them. But it is that latter point that needs emphasising. Original Bulleids needed top rate crews who knew them inside out. Especially as to how to drive them when they started going wrong. As they often did. Strewth, that is partly why so many were rebuilt! Impossible to run such locos as your stock main line loco. You needed solid, reliable and strong performers in all hands day in and day out under virtually all conditions. And that is not what an original Bulleid could consistently do back then.

 

The climb out of Plymouth is, and has always been, tricky and locomotives have to be nursed up to Mutley tunnel to avoid slipping. Why Tangmere on 9 coaches struggled so much is unclear. No sand?
Ray Churchill was probably sat in the support coach as the train approached Hemerdon having had a successful day with her up to the return to Plymouth wishing that he was on the footplate and able to lend a hand. For years, we have dreaded a steam train sitting down on this bank but with amazing regularity, the locomotives seem to dig in and get over the top even when speeds are down in single figures. I know not what the ramifications will be. Hopefully not an insistance of diesel piloting.

You say Ray Churchill is a master of the unrebuilt Bullied but Pete Roberts will always give him a run for his money being an ex Nine Elms man.

Do we know who was on the regulator leaving Plymouth?

 

Given the paucity of steam crews you can't afford to have motive power that will only work if stroked in the right way by drivers it likes.

 

Echoes of the time a black 5 stalled having dispensed with the intended diesel on the rear, about 18 months back? Evidence of lessons learned?
While nobody wants a diesel on the back sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

 

Not my video, but this shows Tangmere's rather slippery departure from Plymouth for those not on the train.



James

 

Yesterday's Duchy wasn't Tangmere at it's exhilarating best by any means. Even under Ray's expert handling we only managed 47 over Flax Bourton Summit and didn't get to 75 on the run down to Taunton until MP155, three miles below Bridgwater. Whiteball was OK but unlike previous runs with the engine, we never got above 59 on the lower reaches but then gave little to the 1 in 80, entering the tunnel at almost 46, it's best is 52. The 'Exminster challenge' started off with Tangmere going back towards Taunton! not sure if it was top dead or the steam reverser playing up - it was the second time on the day and the latter seems most likely as we drifted back too far for a TDC. We passed Exminster at 64, probably the slowest on a duchy. Then, despite going through Newton abbot at 56 there was no noticeable pick up in speed by Aller to attack the bottom of Dainton Bank. On the 1 in 57 speed fell by 5 mph per quarter, entering the tunnel at just on 18 - it's best was 36 a few years ago if I remember rightly. 56 through Totnes was again followed by alarmingly rapid slowing to 38 in the mile and a quarter of 1 in 66/71 and to 18 over the mixed i in 47/58/56. the minimum was 14 at Tigley, recovering to 26 on the 1 in 90/95, and only to 40 into Marley tunnel. Again leaving Plymouth we moved backwards at first. we came out of Wiveliscombe Tunnel at 56 but had lost 12 mph on the 1 in 144/97/215 into St Germans, topping the 1 in 68 at just over 33. we passed Menheniot at 55 and topped the almost mile of 1 in 74 at 37, Similarly the climb away from Liskeard was approached at 61, the nile and a half of mixed grades 1 in 61/74/58/68 saw speed drop to 39. On the return we slipped on the 1 in 109 and speed dropped from 25 to 21. Consequently only entered Treverrin tunnel at the top of the 3/4 mile of 1 in 62 at just under 20. We picked up to 47 on the gentler grades after Lostwithiel and we passed through Bodmin Parkway at the regulation 40. Speed dropped to 28 on the short 1 in 58/68 section and the speed we picked up to 30 on the short stretch at 1 in 426, then lost it and more in a slip on the short 1 in 58 - down to 21 and then 19 topping the 3/4 mile of 1 in 70. We then had 5 bouts of slipping on the climb to Doublebois Summit on the 1 in 90 so 25 at the top was good all things considered.

We arrived in Plymouth early and as we stood waiting for the right away there was a short heavy shower. Bulleid Pacifics and spots of rain!!!!! Our driver was not Bill Warriner, the usual driver, nor Pete Roberts or Andy Taylor, the normal pool of drivers for the Duchys on the return from Plymouth. We were told later by the Train Manager that it was Spike Hodges, a driver unfamiliar to us. As earlier in the day, we started by moving backwards twice before moving forward quite violently, possibly due to slipping as well. It did seem as if the steam reverser was being it's playful self horribly. Having said that, after more slipping on the crossovers and a slow climb into Mutley Tunnel, we accelerated nicely and reached Plympton River Bridge at the required 64, starting the half mile of 1 in 41 at 59 but losing speed rapidly to 39 over the half mile of 1 in 47 and to 32 over the first quarter of a mile of 1 in 42. Then there was quite a long slip which our driver didn't 'catch', followed by a second slip as speed fell to 14 passing MP240 1/4, half a mile on. Speed rapidly fell to under 3 mph and then we inevitably stalled. This is where the folly of a lightweight Bullied Pacific with 9 on a 1 in 42 was shown as there was no way they could restart the train on that grade, not even Ray who we understand tried himself. The old 'book limits' was about ensuring a class of engine could restart it's train in any conditions on the steepest grade on the route. Does anyone on the forum think a Bulleid Pacific could restart a 360 ton train on a 1 in 42 grade? We always saw it as a disaster waiting to happen but hoped it never would.

Anyway, due to the co-operation of FGW and Network Rail, 08645 was summoned from Laira and we were towed down to Plymouth where all passengers joined the delayed 2000 Paddington HST that left at 2117. WCRC/FGW/NR even arranged for the HST to stop at Yatton and we got back to BTM only half an hour late.
I guess some pasengers might have had a problem with their on going journey but we were looking at 3-4 hours late if we'd had to wait for the Class 47 recovery loco from Bristol. It was good to see the co-operation between the companies but it was probably their best solution as in the hour and three quarters we were on the bank they'd not arranged wrong line working and the 1925 Paddington was still at Plymouth. lots of delay time there I'm afraid.

I hope we find out the reasons for the situation we got into and I don't think it was just the driver. The steam reverser is a difficult animal and I'd be amazed if it hadn't contributed to the stall and the failure to catch the slips. It was odd but there was a feeling on the train that we hadn't been in 'full forward gear' all day. The usual sparkling acceleration was lacking and the station starts became a bit of a joke among the passengers. I'm left wondering what they'll do about the 16th. I think Tangmere and 9 now has to be a thing of the past. She failed the ultimate test of 'appropriate load' yesterday in the dry. It's not all down to WCRC either as don't forget that NR accepted the train. It does add ammunition to ORR's proposed restrictions on loading though. I hope there won't be a knee jerk reaction to yesterday.

 

Is the temprementality of the loco a liability WCRC can afford just at the moment would be the question I'd ask myself in their shoes. It has a higher rate of incident per outing than any other loco, a fact, not a criticism. It's unique on the main line and perhaps being remote from the HQ works presents difficulty?

 

I think we should not lambast 34067 over this stall on Hemerdon. I remember the Eastleigh crews saying that the problem is often the steam reverser which is difficult to handle compared to a traditional reverser. This may have contributed to its laboured get away from Plymouth.

I think it is more a case of teaching the West Coast drivers how to drive an unrebuilt Bullied?

 

It was just an observation Maureen he just looked a bit fed up at the turntable in St blazey...

 

My camera totally messed up, so here's my Dads effort - she certainly doesn't seem like an engine in trouble here..nice clean exhaust! Small bit of camera shake from dad, sorry!

 

I find it hard to end up anywhere other than with WCRC's management on this (and I'm not a routine WCRC basher!).

Clearly Tangmere with its unique (in current mainline terms anyway) and temperamental steam reverser is both a welcome addition to the variety on the mainline and a major challenge to drivers. What that should mean is that a sensible operator minimises the risks by making good decisions. In this case I think poor decisions were made leaving the driver out of Plymouth and the passengers carrying the cost.

Firstly if is known that certain drivers can make Tangmere sing whilst others struggle then tours should only be being sent out if relevant crews are available - maybe with one of the others that needs more training/experience working in tandem to expand the available pool. Writing this off as just WCRC drivers not knowing what they are doing is unfair - Tangmere needs special skills and a responsible employer would ensure their staff had the training needed rather than sending them out hoping for the best and leaving them red faced etc when it goes wrong.

Secondly if exceptionally you know you won't have one of the relevant crews, why load up to (and maybe beyond) the limit on a challenging route. It may well be that Ray Churchill or one of the others could have got her over the bank yesterday but if they weren't available that's not a relevant factor in decision making.

Finally if as it seems Tangmere was playing up on the way out, why did no-one have the sense to call the diesel forward from Bristol to say Exeter so it was better placed to rescue.

I don't think anyone would really feel removing Tangmere from the mainline is a good thing - she adds to variety and with sensible management could stay. Its also not fair to leave the expertise of the crews in question when they clearly manage to run the Jacobites, VT's trips etc without incident when those trips are sensibly managed. So what perhaps needs to happen is that WCRC stopa sending Tangmere out loaded to the limit and recognise her as a unique mainline machine that needs to be treated with the caution that her foibles and arguably flawed design dictate. We clearly aren't going to want the steam reverser etc changed and we still want to see her out and about - we just need to see sense prevail.

 

Very much agree with this. If Ray knows how to drive her, but had done his hours, would he have still been allowed on the footplate to advise?

 

Also in the defence of the crews..

When I was 17 I learned to drive on a car with a choke - cold starting was a pain and you had to be fully aware of its foibles until the car was fully warmed up.

Within 18 months I had what we would now regard a 'normal' car, no choke, fuel injection etc and I've been driving such vehicles for 16 years since.

If I now had to go back and drive a car with a choke, I would struggle to get the best out of it for the first 50 miles or so. Then put me in a classic car where the gears are place differently, there is a choke, and an overdrive. I would understand the principle, and even though I consider myself a good driver I would be pretty rubbish at getting the best out of it to start with.

Given that Tangmere is so different to everything with a manual reverser etc I do feel for the crews...it's not like they can take Tangmere on a practise run to cover every eventuality....

 

Your last point about achieving competence through crew familiarity training is surely a significant one given the relatively few opportunities available on the mainline. Hiring the MHR for a series of prolonged sessions wouldn't be a bad idea either using Tangmere and/or similar.

 

Here’s my video of The Royal Duchy on the 2nd August 2015. Taken at Whiteball, approaching Stoneycombe and, in the dark, on Hemerdon with a diesel pilot.