Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by gwr4090, Jul 14, 2017.
Hope you're right Al.
The problem as I remember it was when they tried to turn the Duchess last year (or was it the year before?). Had to demolish part of the fencing and then have it rebuilt to placate the owner!
The fence and the railing have been at BZ for many years (since the semi-roundhouse was taken out of use and sold off by BR) and did not cause any issues for previous visiting locos. The issue, last year, was the length of the 'Duchess' - 63ft wheelbase but 74ft over the buffers.
A 'Brit', by comparison, has a 58ft wheelbase, with 69ft over the buffers and a WC has a 57.5ft wheelbase and 67.5ft over the buffers. A 'Scot' has a wheelbase of 54.75ft and is 65.25 ft over the buffers.
Thanks for the info James. Sounds like the Scot should fit then!
Thanks for that James. Seems like my friend was misinformed about the fence being new and repositioned being closer to the turntable edge.
Thought I would post an image of 'Duchess of Sutherland' on our turntable at Yeovil on 13 August 2008. Some careful planning to ensure the engine was correctly stopped ensured that the nearest fence was cleared by a few inches during turning! Paul
Any smoke signals from Southall Depot this morning? The Scot's FTR must be underway.
5Z46, the ECS move from Southall, was activated at 11:12 so hopefully the Scot has passed it's FTR.
46100 and support past Yatton so looking good for tomorrow.
Appears to be load 9 including support coach for the Royal Duchy tomorrow. <BJ>
Looks like there's been some smashing running by 46100 today. If RTT is to be believed, around 64mins was covered from Plymouth to Exeter, converting a 17L departure into an 5min advantage on arrival at St Davids. Hopefully a report will appear in due course to back this up. I've got a date with 'The Duchy' on 3rd Sep, hopefully with my first Bulleid west of Exeter.
My efforts of todays action , Whiteball, two clips of a great ascent of Hemerdon and finally under a cloud burst and very dark clouds at Pugham Farm . Royal Scot put in great performance today .
Here’s my video of the run on the 30th July 2017, taken at Whiteball, Totnes and Hemerdon:
My footage from yesterday's run. Filmed at Whiteball, Tigley, Treboul and Hemerdon. Unwanted tractor noises aside, the soundtrack from the Scot up Hemerdon in the evening was utterly superb!
And possibly 35028 on Torbay express, would be superb to have two bulleids in one day
As no-one has, this is how it went from on the train.
The Royal Duchy 30th July 2017
So to the first of this year's troubled Royal Duchy Series, now reduced to 3 trains. At BTM, Class 33, 33207 was at the head of the 8 coach train at Platform 10 and got us to Taunton. That's a long write up of a diesel hauled journey for me! No sign of the Scot at Taunton. It was still in Fairwater Yard. It took a while to get the 33 off but the Scot duly backed on quickly for an on time departure. We weren't expecting fireworks on Whiteball as the Scot was setting off with a 'cold' fire.
Andy Taylor was driving with Chris Yates firing, an excellent crew indeed. Over the first mile speed gradually rose to 31 passing mp164 on the gentle 1 in 370 gradient. Noise and speed had increased to 51 by mp 166/Victory LC at 57, and rose very steadily to 54 as we crossed Bradford -on-Tone LC, 3 miles out. We gained speed steadily we some decent noise coming from the front. Royal Scot sounds very different to Guardsman. Speed rose a bit slower than expected up the 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 174 (56), with an ultimate maximum of 58 on the short 1 in 170 through Wellington. We met the steeper 1 in 90 for a mile at 70 and the noise level increased considerably. The rail was damp and our speed fell gradually over the 3/4 mile of 1 in 86 and we took 48 onto the final 3/4 mile of 1 in 80, entering Whiteball Tunnel at 43 in just under 14 minutes. The summit post 174 was passed at 43. A very decent climb from a Taunton start.
Speed picked up rapidly over the summit and we roared through Tiverton Parkway at 74/73 and Tiverton Junction at 75. The Scot bowled down the bank in the mid to highish 70s; Hele and Bradnich LC was passed at 75, a speed held down over Stoke Canon LC before we braked before Cowley Bridge Jn and drifted into Exeter St David's, our final pick up in just over 32 minutes, 8 early and plenty of time to pop over to the Great Western Hotel for a pint of a Skinner's Cornish Ale while the engine was watered and prepared for the serious climbing to come.
The fire looked good but typically we were delayed by a late running HST. We left 10 late, only 4 minutes behind it. It was a noisy. smoky start out of St David's and we passed St Thomas at 40. Probably due to being so close to the HST that was stopping at Newton Abbot, Andy kept the Scot close to 60 to ensure we had a good distance between us and it as it. Consequently Exminster was only passed at 61, as was Star Cross and Dawlish Warren. Dawlish was passed at the line limit of 60; Teignmouth at 61. Four miles on we approached Newton Abbot Station at 60, 7 minutes after the HST had departed for Totnes. With green signals we roared through the station at 60, a good omen for the assault on Dainton.
We didn't witness the usual pick up of speed between the station and Aller and our speed was still just on 60 as we swung right away from the lines to Paignton onto the foot of Dainton Bank. The Scot sounded superb as it began to round the succession of tight reverse curves past Stoneycombe Quarry with their ever steepening gradients. We met the first 1/4 mile or so of I in 98 at 60 and our speed fell slowly to 51 over the 1/2 mile of 1 in 57; to 43 by MP 217 after the short 1 in 46/56, and to 40 after the 1/4 mile section of 1 in 56/41. This took us onto the final reverse curve and the steepest part of the bank, 3/4 mile with short sections of 1 in 41/49/36/44 where speed fell to 26.5 at mp217 3/4 and a very decent 26.2 into Dainton Tunnel. Time taken from NA was 4 mins 34.4 secs.
We were watching the late running HST on RTT and were still only 7 minutes behind it over Dainton Summit. Ray Churchill had an 'arrangement' with the panel about signals on the approach to Totnes to ensure we didn't have to slow or come to a stand as the sharp rise of gradient onto Rattery Bank is only a short distance past the station in a long block to Tigley. The panel must have decided we were closing too quickly on the HST and checked, then stopped us for a short time 1/2 a mile or so from the station. Once the signal turned to green Andy opened the Scot up and the sound was superb as we accelerated through the station at 41 to hit the foot of the bank at 42 (the preferred speed is 60ish).
The 4 1/4 mile climb to Rattery Summit that, like Dainton has a number of tight curves, starts under the bridge just outside the station with 3/4 miles of 1 in 66 to mp224 1/2(32); next was 1/4mi of 1 in 71(29); then 1/2 mile+ of 1 in 47(28); a mixed 1/2 mile of 1 in 50/56/47/57 to mp225(26.5). It rained quite hard then to add to the fun over the 1/2 mile of 1 in 52 to Tigley, mp225 3/4(23.3). Then followed a 1/4 mile of 1 in 52/74(26.2) before the gradient eased to 3/4 mile of 1 in 90 to mp226 1/2(29.4). There's a final 1/2 mile mostly of 1 in 95 but with a short kick up to 1 in 65 to mp227, passed at 24. A solid climb especially taking into account the rain.
The gradients aren't significant 'across the top' with track speed 60. Reference points were Marley Tunnel(34); Wrangaton summit(49.3); Ivybridge(62). We dropped down Hemerdon quickly but adverse signals pulled us back to 17 at mp245 1/4, making for a noisy short I in 83/71 climb into Mutley Tunnel. We rolled into Plymouth North Road 6 down still with plenty of time to take water and be ready for a 1315 departure. A fellow timer and I compared notes and had almost identical summit speeds and times.
We left Plymouth on time and the first couple of miles sets the tone for Cornwall - undulating with tight curves. Steam hauled trains always look impressive curving right out of North Road on a wicked bit of 1 in 100 followed by 1/4 mile of 1 in 59 up into Devonport(33). Then we dropped down through Dockyard(41) and Keyham(49) before climbing a short bit of 1 in 83/59 to St Budeaux Ferry Road(35) and beyond before a sharp 1 in 62 onto the Royal Albert Bridge (14).
Once over IKB's masterpiece we passed through Saltash(22) on the tight curve. There's a short 1 in 200/142(50) but the first real climb in Cornwall comes at German's. The station was approached After a noisy climb away from Wiveliscombe Tunnel(61), the station was approached up 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 144/220 (60 to 49), then 1/4 mile of 1 in 97 up to the station(47) ; 1/4 mile of 1 in 215 through the station(47); 1/2 mile of 1 in 78 (45); 3/4 mile of 1 in 68(38.5). The second comes after Menheniot, approached after a rare almost level mile(57). The grade steepens rapidly to 1/4 mile 1 in 80(53.6); 1/2 mile of 1 in 95(49.6); and just under a mile of 1 in 74 to the summit (42). We rolled along to Liskeard (58), picking up to 62 before noisily attacking the climb to Doublebois; first a 1/2 mile of 1 in 61(51); 1/2 miles of 1 in 74(43); 1/4 miles of 1 in 58(38.1); 1/4 of 1 in 857(39); 1/4 mile of 1 in 68(39.7) then there's a bit of a blip 1 in 67d/level before a short sharp 1/4 mile of 1 in 53 to the summit, passed at 39.9.
It's basically downhill then through Bodmin Parkway(46) with a short climb into Brownqueen Tunnel (51) to Lostwithiel(50). The climb to Treverrin Tunnel, starts with a 3/4 mile of 1 in 118/57/72(46); 1/4 mile lev/1 in 147(44) then the mileposts disappeared over the 1/2 mile of 1 in 64/85 into the tunnel(41.9). We drifted down the bank into Par a couple of minutes down against the tight 47 minute schedule.
We ordered a taxi to Fowey and lunched in The Lugger, sampling some rather good St Austell Beers; Proper Job, Tribute, HSD and a Summer Special. Unfortunately there was no fresh (non-battered) fish so two of us had splendid local dressed crabs.
Back at Par there was no sign of The Scot. We found out there had been issues gaining access to the depot; then being released due to a late running Newquay-Paddington service. This resulted in an 11 minute late departure, not a problem with the generous return timings to Plymouth. Spike Hodges was our driver but I didn't get the name of the fireman. Less than 1/2 mile out of Par we hit almost a mile of 1 in 84(21). The grade eased for a mile to 1 in 109(24) then things got noisy up the almost a mile of 1 in 62 into Treverrin Tunnel(20.3). We dropped down through Lostwithiel(44) and a mile or so later tackled the 10 mile climb to Doublebois. The first part of the climb, 1 1/4 mile of 1 in 389/short bit of 1 in 71, took us into Brownqueen Tunnel at 49. This was the max we made on the climb. Things got much noisier at the front up the mixed mile that steepened to 1 in 65 through Bodmin Parkway mp274(39.5). The sound from the Scot was sharp and even as the next four miles of I in 80/69/58/68/58/70 took their toll with a minimum speed of 24.9. After a short easing and downhill bit(29), the Scot charged the mainly 1 in 90 into Sperritt Tunnel( level; 33 in; 49out) and lost nothing to the official summit. Didn't get the mp time due to the awkward low sun.
We dropped through Liskeard(48) after which the short 3/4 mile of 1 in 79/258 saw our speed fall to 37.8. That was the last of the Cornish Climbs. Station speeds were Menheniot (61); St German's (48) and Saltash (16). We climbed the short 1 in 81(16.5) onto the Royal Albert Bridge and passed St. Budeaux Ferry Road at 46. There was a noisy climb up the almost 3/4 mile of 1 in 68 into Keyham(42.8); and after Dockyard (39.6) a short bit of 1 in 76 into Devonport (38). We arrived into Plymouth North Road a few minutes. The support crew rolled out the hoses from the hydrant at the south end of the station that took us a bit by surprise as it wasn't a booked water stop. We were told that they'd filled the Scot in the depot before turning the engine and by Plymouth had used almost 2,000 gallons of water. Bit surprising that but we had plenty of time before the next London HST and the timing to Exeter wasn't actually demanding.
So, what of Hemerdon with a Royal Scot? It always helps having a 4-6-0 on the front for a North Road departure but just to confound that theory we did slip once just outside the station. Spike Hodges was on the handle and I must admit we did we did look left at Laira(57) for the Class 08 Shunter (some of you will know what that's all about). As has become par (no pun intended), by Tavistock Yard's 3 miles out, we were roaring along at over 60 with plenty of steam. We hit Hemerdon Bank proper at mp241 3/4 on 1/2 mile of 1 in 41( 57). Speed fell quickly as the noise level rose on 1/2 mile of 1 in 47(35.5). The Scot dug in and attacked the tough mile+ of 1 in 42 sounding absolutely superb. Still speed fell steadily half way in, mp240 1/4(26.6); mp240(23.9); then a minimum of 20.7 at the change of gradient post close to mp239 3/4, the timer's summit. We picked up to 24.8 over the easier 1 in 75. At mp239 1/4, the 'official' summit, our speed was 33.8. A decent climb on damp rail.
Then there was Dainton, a longer climb eastbound with similar ever changing gradients and tight reverse curves, especially around Coombe Fishacre. The tunnel itself is around 5 miles from Totnes Station. Spike really opened the Scot up as we came off Rattery Bank and we charged noisily through the station at 64. Two miles out after 1/4 mile of 1 in 78 our speed was 55. Then followed a mile of 1 in 205/120/227/86 to mp220(56.6). Here I lost the mileposts in the gloom. My GPS showed: end of the mile of level/1 in 206/75/105 (mpMP218 3/4) (50); 1/2 mile of 1 in 55/65/38 to actual mp218 1/4(39.1); 1/4 mile 1 in 38 to actual mp218 (31.7) and as the grade eased to 1 in 130, into the Tunnel at a very decent 29.3. We drifted through Aller(51); blasted through Newton Abbot(53) then around the 'sea wall'; Teignmouth(58); Dawlish(57); Dawlish Warren (57); Starcross (56). Exminster was passed at 56 and we drifted into P6 at Exeter St Davids 6E. Again fellow timers had recorded virtually identical summit speeds
Despite following another late running HST, we left RT and wondered what the climb to Whiteball Summit had in store. The rails were wet and after a steady start, Cowley Bridge Jn was passed at 35. The light had gone despite it still being July apparently. The rain got worse as we climbed. Next reference point was Stoke Canon LC, just before mp190, (57). Then we lost speed over 3/4 mile of 1 in 685d/271, mp189 1/4(44). Might have been a signal check but the late running Paddington was 10 minutes ahead of us. Then we accelerated up the 1 in 219 to cross Hele and Bradnich LC at 57.8 as the rain got heavier. Speed picked up over the gentler gradients over the next 4 miles mp181 3/4(62), held over the 1/2 mile 1 in 284 to Cullompton.
Over the mile and a half of 1 in 155 to Tiverton Junction speed only fell to 59 and then the Scot picked up over the mile of 1 in 216 and 1/2 mile of 1 in 405 to blast through Tiverton Parkway at our max of 64.4. With the HST well out of the way Spike attacked the final 3 miles to the summit. The Scot's even exhaust blasted around the cuttings in the heavy rain which unfortunately meant I had to resort to the GPS's Trip again for a mile or so. We took 63/4 onto the final 2 1/4 miles of 1 in 115; passed Burlescombe at 56; passed actual mp174 1/4 at 54.4; then topped the summit, actual mp174 at 53.3. We ran down into Whiteball Tunnel at 57.2, some 25 mins after leaving Exeter.
Whether it was because we were heading for the engine change at Fairwater Yard or for some other reason, the normal fast run down Wellington Bank didn't happen. The max was 70 at Wellington itself and speed had dropped to 54 by Bradford-on-tone LC. We drifted over Victory LC at 32 and ran slowly down to Fairwater Yard where we unfortunately bade farewell to the Scot.
The 33 was there and got us back to Bristol 6 minutes late. Nothing to do with the engine. We were held for a late running TAU-BTM coming off Worle Junction and stopping at Worle, Yatton and Nailsea and Backwell. Ho hum. Bristol Panel *****.
A really good first Royal Duchy with the Scot tackling the South Devon Banks in fine style, despite the annoying rain and often wet rails. The train was spoiled for me by the lack of steam between BTM and Taunton. In the morning it usually resulted in a better than even time between Yatton and Taunton, and then we had the mile after mile of 75 mph running back to Yatton with the bonus of the attack on Flax Bourton, signature parts of previous years Duchys. Still, as the late,great Terry Wogan would have said 'mustn't grumble'.
Many thanks to: Nigel - who we had the opportunity to chat too quite a few times during the day as he was sitting opposite us - for persevering and running the Duchys with such a limited locomotive availability in the south of the country; to LSL for turning out the Scot in such superb condition and providing a very professional support crew; and last but not least to WCR for the operation on the day and the provision of excellent crews who provided us with really good performances from the Scot all day. Hopefully we'll have a drier day next week.
Many thanks to Shireman 1020 for the very detail report, very much appreciated especial for those of us booked on the cancelled run on 23rd and who couldn't get on this train as it was sold out!
Do you have any more times for the reference timed sections? I estimate Dainton (westbound) as about 3 min 38 sec which would make it a solid mid-table climb. I am sure you are aware but Mike Notley always used MP238.5 as the end of the measured section on Hemerdon which is well after the end of the 1 in 42, no idea why.
You sure about the Hemerdon Summit timing point Mike used? Quail shows the summit at 239m 40c. The top of the bank is a confusing place. The 1 in 75 seems to be an average as between mp239.75 and 239.5 there are 2 Gradient Posts still in situ. The first shows an easing to 1 in 51, the latter, a short distance further up, to 1 in 89. The quarter of a mile of 1 in 600 alongside the sidings is ignored. The stone overbridge with mp239 up against the Brent side of the bridge after Hemerdon Sidings is definitely on a downgrade.
The summit is a bit subjective as the Ian Allan Gradient Profiles are based on Pad-Ply via the B&H whereas the current mileposts are based on Pad-BTM via Bath. The convergence is Cogload Jn, 138m 30c B&H, 158m 50c via Bath so we have to add 20m 20c to the mileages in the profiles. The top of the 1 in 75 is typically not on a precise quarter, more probably 219m 15c. Add on the 20m 20c and you get 239m 35c which is why 'slowest speed' above 239.75 is often quoted. Not an exact science.
I've forgotten what the reference points were for Dainton Westbound. From your estimate I'm surmising the section is mp215 to the tunnel entrance which makes the time 3m 35.5s; 215 to 218 was 3m 59.6s.
Yes, Hemerdon is complicated and dependent on where you are in the train, the minimum speed can occur at quite a different point from the milepost readings in the final quarter mile or so. The overbridge is generally taken as where the minimum speed occurs at the end of the 1 in 42. I take the summit speed at MP239.25 after the gradient eases. You get a similar dilemma at Rattery where the minimum is usually at Tigley - MP 225.5. No such dilemma with Dainton though!
Dainton (westbound) MP215 - Tunnel in
Rattery MP223 - MP227.5
Hemerdon MP242.5 - MP238.5
Dainton (eastbound) - MP221.5 - tunnel in
Mike sent me his tables some years ago which I have tried to maintain ever since, at least for leading times.
Separate names with a comma.