RTC daytrips 2013

That's cool for the Bluebell, has a Black 5 run there before ? (I know 73082).

 

Not to my knowledge. It will almost certainly be a first. Black fives have run on the Brighton Main Line and along the coast to Eastbourne and Hastings, both in BR days and in preservation. As far as the Bluebell Line is concerned, according to Klaus Marx , in his Illustrated History of the Lewes & East Grinsetad Railway, "The Oxted-Haywards Heath route was passed for much heavier engines, includng Class 5 4-6-0s (BR and LMS) and 'Britannia' pacifics, though there is no indication that any of these engines ever availed themselves of the opportunity" The only big Stanier engine to have visited the Bluebell so far has been 5690 Leander.

 

Seems likely and with Steam Dreams returning to West Coast the pool of locos that will fit in Kent and Sussex is limited to 70000, 70013, and 34046 ,assuming 34067 is not available, 44932 ditto, with 45231 going to the Bluebell and also assuming 35028 is not currently approved to work for West Coast.This is before availability of support crews.

 

AIUI, 45231 is going to the Bluebell for the winter, which is a period of high demand for big engines on the Bluebell (with Santa trains etc) but presumably a period of low demand on the mainline. So I assume it will be available again for mainline work from next spring.

Tom

 

It will be interesting if it does arrive on the 9th November special. If it takes the London-Uckfield and Hurst Green-Sheffield Park legs of the trip, it could be detached, with 34046 left to work back to London. The only problems could be (1) large tender locos usually face north on the Bluebell. When 78019 and 3205 visited, they faced south, but both are substantially smaller than a Black Five. Would it be a problem if 45231 worked its stint facing south? (2) With the strict "one engine in steam" rule on the new extension, presumably either 34046 would have to work the return trip solo, including the 1 in 55 stretch north of Kingscote, or else 45231 would have to push the train all the way onto NR metals at EG, uncouple and then return to the Bluebell, which all sounds a bit complex. Your thoughts, Tom??

A B1 might fit too. We'll have to see on that one. Also, it depends which part of Sussex. The Brighton Main Line and West Sussex Coast lines are a bit more gauge-friendly. I travelled from Haywards Heath through Chichester to Bath behind 60019, and have photos of both 60019 and 71000 at Chichester Station (not that we're likely to see 71000 on the main line anywhere for a while, sadly.) The Great Marquess and Flying Scotsman both worked down the Brighton Main Line in the 1960s - not that this means anything now - although I'm sure 61994 would be a very weclome visitor if it was still in gauge and its support group didn't mind a stint well away from the usual Scottish base. It's certainly in gauge for SP-KC, as it visited the Bluebell in 1996.

Perhaps the thought of a bit of extra work down south might inspire him to get cracking on 35009!!!

 

Having 44871 and 45407 in London would be a good strategic move in my opinion.

 

Very true about 60019 (in fact she's been through Haywards Heath twice) but that was before the valances were added and she was removed from SD Lewes to Ely tour 2 years ago not long after they were fitted, but wouldn't have thought it'd make too much a difference unless the gauging changes on stations south of Redhill down to Brighton (I'm sure 6233 has been to Redhill when she had a stint on the VSOE buts about 10 years back now, but thats a loco thats hard for me to see as most of its work is too far North for me to see her).

 

A real "strategic reserve" :0)

 

A B1 might fit but I doubt it is available . I was on the Bath trip in December 2008 behind 60019 but I am unsure if A4'S still fit? Both are unavailable for the Bath trip on the 7th and they do not now fit along the Avon Valley one way( cannot remember which). 61994 would be a welcome visitor but with nr 9 down South will they have the support crews for both?

 

I don't think there is any inherent problem with a tender engine facing south. Indeed, given the way the major gradients and summits are, my personal view is that south-facing engines are easier to fire, since after each major climb, the water comes back to you. Whereas on a north-facing engine, as you go over each summit, the driver shuts the regulator (which causes the water to drop) and then you nose over the crest (which causes it to drop even further). So if you are short of water, it is easy to get deceived as to the actual level. With a south-facing engine, those two effects tend to cancel out, so generally, the level you see in the glass going up the hill with the regulator open will be about what you have going down the other side with the regulator closed. Of course, it is all loco-specific as well, but certainly my experience is that engines working backwards up the hills are a bit less of a handful. Going south, the situation is reversed, but the climbs that do exist are a lot less onerous when heading south.

As for how the tour works back out: 12 coaches would be, what? about 420 - 430 tons tare? That's going to be a handful for a Bulleid unassisted, though I suppose ultimately it is at least partly up to the owner about what they think is possible. I guess it is not too dissimilar to loads taken up Honiton bank in days gone by, but Honiton bank didn't have a little 1:55 sting in the tail at the top, nor did each steep section have to be taken from a standing start! November 9th will also be in what is likely to be the main leaf-fall period in Sussex, on what is a very wooded line. So if it does do it unassisted, it will be dramatic at least!

Could a loco bank up the hill? Interesting question, but I can't see why not, though no doubt there are wiser heads than mine thinking about that issue. I'm not passed to transfer traffic from the Bluebell to Network Rail, so I am not overly familiar with the specific rules. But I assume that a train would work up; the Bluebell PIC would then contact NR to obtain permission to move onto NR rails and, once the move was complete, they would confirm that the whole train was on NR metals. At that point, after re-setting the ground frame to normal and locking the gates between NR and Bluebell (at which point the outgoing train is no longer our concern), the token would need to travel back to Kingscote and confirm to the Kingscote signalman that the section was clear of all obstructions. Normally, that would happen by road, but I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be a banking loco. After working up the hill, you would uncouple between banker and train and put a tail lamp on the last carriage, leaving the banker at the south end of the viaduct. (The banker would also carry the token). The PIC could confirm that the complete train with tail lamp had gone onto NR; and when getting back to Kingscote, could also confirm that - since they were the only loco in section and they had seen the whole train depart through the gates - that the section was now clear.

I guess we'll find out when the traffic notice is published, but that is only on the Friday before the trip!

Tom

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Tom. I'll be interested to see how the 9th Nov trip works out in practise - might even travel down to see it if the weather isn't too bad.

44932 managed a pretty long train and an idling class 47 diesel up the climb from Corfe Castle to Afflington Bridge last June, and what a sound it made! However, that's 1 in 78 maximum if my memory serves me correctly as opposed ot 1 in 55, also Black Fives are not so light-footed as Bulleids and as you point out, November is leaf fall season (whereas June isn't) Banker or no banker, it's going to be quite a spectacle.

6233 did one VSOE run on the usual "Surrey Hills" circuit, and also worked a Cathedrals Express to Oxford via Redhill and Reading. Can't remember the year, but I was on it. We went like the wind between Wokingham and North Camp on the way back and the noise on the climb of Gomshall Bank was quite something! While I'm no expert, I would expect that 46233 would be out of gauge south of Redhill, and while I'd love to see her on the Bluebell, I would be even more surprised if she was in gauge for South Croydon-East Grinstead.

Still, we can't complain. 20 years ago, the main lines in Sussex had been steam-free for over 25 years. When I think back to those first trips from London to Brighton in December 1993 and think about how things have changed since then, we have much for which to be thankful.

 

A few points on the above, don't forget that a certain A1 also fits to EG and to Redhill (and presumably would down beyond but no-one seems to have tried it yet). Having the B1 in the south would be fantastic, and authentic after they stood in for the Bulleids on the SW in the 1950s I believe (along with V2s). I would also assume that the 5 will be in demand on the Bluebell if the traditional "shoulder season" workings are being beefed up now we're in EG.

On banking, could it not just do a bit of shunting and come back on the next service train?

I've actually wondered whether there may be a market for summer Sunday regular workings from London to Brighton, maybe two return trips per day? Would easily have time and there are turning facilities reasonably easy at either end. Could appeal to the tourist market in both? Obviously this may be completely impractical but something I've thought about recently.

 

It was planned to happen in December ( London to Sherborne via Haywards Heath) before Steam Dreams announced they were returning to West Coast. Loco currently TBA

 

No. That's the one thing that couldn't happen, because how would you get the token back to Kingscote and tell the signalman that the section was clear, while all the while you had left a stray Black 5 loitering at East Grinstead? !!

The only mechanisms whereby a loco or other bit of rolling stock could be at EG and another engine could nonetheless enter the section would be either (a) a failure, with a rescue engine sent out (which certainly wouldn't then be done with the service train, and which this scenario wouldn't be or (b) tuck it away in the cripple siding. But that is exactly that: putting something in there kicks off a whole bunch more procedures, and in any case, you still have to drive the token back down to Kingscote. Seems simplest to me simply to have the banking engine return the token and at the same time authorise that the section is clear.

Tom

 

So it's confirmed 45231 is going on Tuesday to the Bluebell...

given the Bluebell Explorer trip is:
1. Steam Both Ways
2. Going down the Oxted Line and reversing back...

Does this suggest 44932 will do the honors with 34046 ? (otherwise it's a LE movement from Bluebell to Victoria to operate the trip (thus enabling 34046 to do the return), leaving Bluebell without use of the engine that day ?
44932 was seen out and about insteam today at Kings Cross, so guess all is well once again, otherwise is it Riley to the rescue (as suggested places other users dont reach).

It would be really good if Tunbridge Well's Jinty was in the platform at Eridge, when was the last time a Bullied or a Black 5 passed a Jinty on the mainline ?.. 1980 at Rainhill perhaps ?

 

Can't really see 54 & 48 coming to the rescue for this but once things have settled and any maintenance that is required on returning from Fort William is completed then who knows. Think the date of the trip is a little to soon but then who knows, Riley International Rescue has been known for these sorts of things before by going from one end of the country to the other!

 

Of course there is another option which definitely does fit AND, intriguingly, doesn't seem to be leaving the previous weekend with the rest of the tour...

And of course there's its classmate which is also not being used, and they obviously fit at least to EG (can't imagine the Uckfield section providing any more obstacles).

 

But Ollie will be the wrong way round to take the tour back.

 

44932 is probably the loco that will arrive with 34046. It's at Southall and is also down for the Kentish Belle Armistice Day tour two days later on November 11th. 70013 will probably return via a LE movement during that week. 70000 could also be down for the currently TBA Cathedrals Express from Peterborough to Canterbury also on November 11th which would possibly rule it out.

 

That tour has been cancelled.