If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

RTT and things you may not know or realise

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by RalphW, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    30,177
    Likes Received:
    4,942
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    Rail cam diagram Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria.


    Rail cam diagram.gif

    Rail Cam Crewe Heritage Centre, including Tornado. Chester line on the left WCML on the right. There are three other cameras there showing Chester line, WCML approaches to Crewe from the north and the avoider line northbound. All have sound as well.

    Rail cam CHC.gif

    There are many cameras around the country, including a couple at Ribblehead, excellent for checking the weather and visibility..

    I hope Railcam don't mind me giving them a plug......
     
  2. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    1,054
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    The Potteries
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I've a quick question about RTT which someone cleverer than me might have the answer to.

    Some schedules have mileages in miles and chains and some don't. I've never been able to work out why this is, and more particularly if there is some way of bringing up schedules with mileages.

    Is it just that some routes have distance info and some don't, or is there something else which determines this?
     
  3. Romsey

    Romsey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    524
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired SPM
    Location:
    Close to Spike Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If a train has been "called" or activated on TOPS/TRUST, the mileage is displayed. ( In miles and chains as no one has metricated the linear distances on NR.) If it's a schedule planned to run in the future the timings and routing are shown, but not the mileage to be operated.

    Cheers, Neil

    PS "Called"?
    We're going back into the roots of TOPS for this. TOPS as I expect you are aware was purchased from Union Pacific in 1969/1970 and many American railroad terms were imported. Train crews were (and in some areas of the US and Canada still are) "called" for duty with two hours notice when it is decided to run a train. ( No timetables, just planned departures and traffic flows.)
    On TOPS trains are either "auto called" which means the schedule is automatically switched on for accepting train movement reporting by signalling systems or TOPS for train consist information. "Manual Call" is only used for "Q" services which run as required. ( Manual train call can be overridden when confirmed operating or cancellation dates are known and input through the train planning computer systems.)

    I guess Athelney is the only other person on here who understands this from memory. Any other TOPS clerks from the 1970's and 1980's lurking on here?
     
    staffordian likes this.
  4. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    10,171
    Likes Received:
    6,745
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks for the info. But I'm not sure that can be the whole story - I've made some journeys that show mileages, and others on the same route that don't.
     
  5. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    Agree. For example have a look at Oxenholme right now. The Windermere branch trains have the mileages. The WCML trains tend not to. They are all 'called'. Why's that?
     
  6. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,281
    Likes Received:
    868
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes I have RTT screen dumps of Q path trains eg DCE that have mileages and one off tours that do not eg Ealing Broadway-York that do not. All very confusing.
     
  7. Romsey

    Romsey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    524
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired SPM
    Location:
    Close to Spike Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Interesting, the plot thickens.....
    At an initial look franchised TOC's - SWR, GWR, XC, TPE and Southern quoted mileages, but Virgin didn't.
    LNER some trains show mileages, some don't.
    DB C quote mileages for WTT freight services, but Freightliner and DRS didn't.

    At a guess it's down to the TOC /FOC specifing whether they need the mileage data.

    Cheers, Neil
     
    Graft on and staffordian like this.
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    30,177
    Likes Received:
    4,942
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There have been occasions when people have remarked that RTT shows that a train has departed several minutes early from a pick up station. It has happened twice today on the SSE, at Hebden Bridge and Brighouse. Both stations have a signal at the end of fairly short platforms so with 10 coaches on, both locos, 2x47s run past the signal to get the stock on the platform, so the signal goes to red and the system assumes the train has left the station, and RTT reports this. In both cases we waited for due time before departing.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  9. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,281
    Likes Received:
    868
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So to add to the confusion of the three legs of the End of Southern Steam on Tuesday, two show mileages and one does not. OK three reporting numbers but in effect the same train run by the same TOC

    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55303/2019/07/09/advanced
    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55305/2019/07/09/advanced
    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55304/2019/07/09/advanced
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    4,311
    Likes Received:
    1,987
  11. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    10,171
    Likes Received:
    6,745
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes. It’s tricky, but if you can find the right working for today, then change the date in the url, it will bring up the result.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    Hi Neil

    We have been having a bit of a discussion on the Fellsman thread about the excellent run on 10 July. This caused me to begin reading the RTT thread and I came almost immediately to this post of yours, which led me to wonder if you (or other knowledgeable people) could help @Oswald T Wistle and me on the accuracy of the recorded times.

    For example, if a train is recorded as taking 24 mins from point A to point B, is that accurate to within 15 secs, 30 secs, 1 minute either way?

    Anything on how the system works --- a link or whatever--- would be much appreciated. Not to do with railtours but I've sometimes wondered how RTT knows a train is approaching a station. Does it work off the signalling system so that means the train has passed the approach signal?

    Regards

    Peter
     
  13. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    2,540
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
    My assumption of the way it works is for the likes of the S&C where there are manned boxes at the block posts, the signaller enters the times to the system manually and it is automated for the likes of Shap where the sections are controlled from the power boxes.
     
  14. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    That figures. It is noticeable that on the S and C the times are in quarter minutes from Leeds to Skipton, then in full mins, then back to quarter mins for the run in to Carlisle. So the section times are probably plus or minus a minute at best.
     
  15. Romsey

    Romsey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    524
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired SPM
    Location:
    Close to Spike Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Between you, that's 90% of the situation.
    The 1/4 minute accuracy is from train detection in some power signalled areas, normally ones equipped with CCF (Control Centre of the Future) such as Thames Valley Signalling Centre. Automatic records from TSDB only records to whole minutes. Records from manual signal boxes are input manually into TSDB in whole minutes only, whatever is recorded in the train register.

    To complicate matters further, the time displayed is when a specified track circuit/axle counter section is occupied, not when the train passes the centre of the platform or Junction. Some reporting points use track circuits which are not at the exact location to avoid confusing data with multiple routes, known as "offset". (This particularly applies in complex areas like Latchmere Jn and the Longhedge, Factory and Stewarts Lane Jns triangle.) Offset is why the reporting of loco turning trips at Carlisle can be a bit odd, apart from triggering the same reporting location three times.

    RTT showing that a train is approaching a station just means that it has occupied the signal section approaching the timing point.

    As a personal view recording freight trains to 15 second accuracy is pointless when a 30 wagon container train will take two minutes to drag across a junction. This explains why junction margins are specified with notes to allow extra time for certain types of train.

    I hope that helps, but it is getting towards the limit of my knowledge from Train Planning and dabbling on the edge of delay attribution.

    Cheers, Neil
    ED. for spelling and content - it's been a long day.
     
  16. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    Thank you very much for that very clear explanation Neil.
     
  17. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    620
    Likes Received:
    1,517
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    The Dalesman on 3 Sep 2019 produced the following; my time for arr/dep/pass [as appropriate] (RTT posted time in brackets)
    1Z45
    Hellifield a 11:59:12 (No report)
    Hellifield d 12:22:50 (No report)
    Settle Jn p 12:29:05 (12:29)
    Blea Moor p 12:52:53 (12:53)
    Garsdale p 13:06:21 (No report)
    Kirkby Stephen p 13:16:43 (13:16)
    Appleby a 13:29:00 (13:31)
    Appleby d 13:48:00 (13:51)
    Kirkby Thore p 13:55:29 (13:55)
    Culgaith p 13:58:08 (13:58)
    Low House p 14:14:11 (14:14)
    Howe & co p 14:17:51 (14:18)
    1Z46
    Howe & co p 16:56:56 (16:57)
    Low House p 17:02:16 (17:01)
    Culgaith p 17:17:58 (17:18)
    Kirkby Thore p 17:21:01 (17:20)
    Appleby a 17:27:40 (17:28)
    Appleby d 17:42:26 (17:43)
    Kirkby Stephen p 18:02:48 (18:02)
    Garsdale p 18:19:53 (No report)
    Blea Moor p 18:31:50 (18:32)
    Settle Jn p 18:48:10 (18:49)
    Hellifield goods loop a 18:55:27 (18:54)

    A couple of anomalies but generally in keeping with Neil's explanation. More difficult to explain are the Hellifield times on RTT for 6M31 Doncaster-Arcow Quarry.

    Hellifield 12:11, Hellifield Goods Loops a 12:12 d 12:32. 1Z45 stopped in the platform line at 11:59 and left at 12:23. Galatea was in the DGL when we arrived, the diesel dropped back via the DGL into the Down siding after which Galatea ran forward and reversed onto the front of 1Z45 before we left several minutes later. I did not see 6M31 in the DGL!?
     
    46203 likes this.
  18. D1002

    D1002 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,061
    Likes Received:
    1,794
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Enfield
    staffordian likes this.
  19. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    1,054
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    The Potteries
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Much clearer, and more information.

    Only slight issue for me, looking at a schedule on an Android phone, in portrait mode the columns seem a bit squashed, but turning phone to landscape restores order :)
     
  20. Romsey

    Romsey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    524
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired SPM
    Location:
    Close to Spike Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's the same information, but displayed in a different way, moving it away from the 1970's style TSDB output.
    I suppose I'll get used to the new format. There does seem to be a lot of blank space which could be used to display information in tabular form instead of text notes under timing points.

    Cheers, Neil
     
    3ABescot likes this.

Share This Page