S&C reopening special with Flying Scotsman 31/03/17

Some good points here.

The world has changed as you say, particularly with more affluent pensioners. This was brought home to me on the Welsh Highland a couple of years ago. My wife and I paid about £32 each (which I thought was quite pricey), and the train was well filled with people of a certain age.

I didn't think people would pay £50 to watch a football match, but I was wrong.

 

I think you are either a pro-gala person/celebrity loco fan or you are not. Personally I tend to avoid them, and spend my money visting lines/museums on ordinary days when you can get to, and see what's there, in comfort and hassle free. I get as much enjoyment from any locomotive as the current celebrity favourites. I do like those obviously, IF and when I see them, but an 0-4-0 shunter or a Black 5 fulfills the need to see a steam engine working in just as good a way as, for example Royal Scot, Tornado or Scotsman. Luckily I did see two of those working last year, but the best memory from 2016, a visit/ride on the Tanfield Rly in the rain and atmosphere oozing everywhere.

 

I think the fundamental question at the root of all the "free enterprise" pricing is where will the eagerly planned for profits end up?. Clearly the KWVR (and other similarly inclined preserved railways) believe there is something in for them which is doubtless true. However a huge proportion of the income so generated will end up with the NRM who, by charging premium hire rates, are desperately trying to offset the ludicrous costs they incurred during the most protracted & badly managed restoration project in preservation history. Whilst this might at first seem a sensible contribution towards funding future projects in practice I think it will be more than offset by falls in direct government financing on the basis that the profits the NRM makes on trading can be clawed back by reducing tax-funded grants.

The KWVR have clearly jumped on this bandwagon and yes, those who can afford it will patronise either the Ingrow events, running days or the railtour. In the longer term I don't think what the KWVR intend to recoup in relatively high charges will put off it's long-term supporters, unless of course it becomes a pattern for future events which could be a distinct possibility. Those who hold annual photographic permits will either stay at home, use their knowledge to find free vantage points or reluctantly cough up the extra but it doesn't bode well for the whole concept of an annual pass being retrospectively restricted to exclude holders from any special event where the KWVR hierarchy think they can extract additional money from those who already provide a regular annual income.

With regard to comments re the 15 Guinea Special and average income in 1968 against £220 for Oxenhope - Carlisle today I don't believe the comparison is particularly useful. 1968 was thought at the time to be "The End". Flying Scotsman is just starting the latest chapter in a hundred year saga which will continue beyond both 2017 and 2023. The NRM media supported frenzy will die down and the public interest will return to more typical levels. Undoubtedly 4472 is a magnificent machine and the KWVR may be successful in making the most of current opportunities, but my wallet will remain unopened until both the hype and hyper-inflated fares have subsided.

 

@Fred Kerr has I think drawn a very useful comparison between Thomas and Flying Scotsman, which actually may highlight why the former is out of favour and the latter is currently receiving such attention and demanding premium fares.

These Flying Scotsman events are very much 'one-offs'. The other options for riding behind the loco are much more expensive mainline trips, which are also of longer duration. Just how attractive will they be to a family market? (That said, how much of the market for the preserved railway says are the family market?)

In 2016, Flying Scotsman ran on just 3 preserved lines. I can immediately think of 4 visits currently planned for 2017 but I am sure more will be added (and/or I have missed some already announced). Apart from the East Lancs (where the 'running in' was done), none so far have been return visits - and I suspect it will be a long time before there are many return visits. I am equally pretty sure that 60103 will be avoiding low loaders, but there are still a large number of rail connected lines not yet with planned visits. The loco has certainly recaptured its place as 'the world's best known steam locomotive' (especially given that the known world now once again ends at Dover!) but these are all 'unique' events (as is the S&C reopening special) for the lines in question.

Thomas has become an annual fixture - like many other dates in calendar. Galas are always different due to what is running and any theme, Santa Specials become tradition but can the same be said of Thomas? It has been said if you don't make money from Thomas, you're not doing it properly but I disagree. Thomas (like Santa) takes preserved railways into a slightly different market - very definitely 'entertaining kids' and while there will always be additions to that market, kids also grow up and find Thomas childish (honest, some do, really!) Thomas events need constant refreshing - some will like 'doing the same each year' (it basically works for Santas), but also Thomas is at the mercy of weather, other clashing events elsewhere (not railway related) and indeed its own success and hence overcrowding (and this is where Flying Scotsman and Santa are much more similar - pre-booked, limited accommodation in most cases so assured of a seat - one of the reasons for the premium).

There is also the risk for the 'brand owner' that as they aim to, perhaps no unreasonably, take a larger share of the income made, that changes the risk profile for host railway. Snow at Easter isn't impossible, and I suspect only Santas will have given an indication as to how parking and crowd management measures will work for the KWVR - and what if something goes wrong with the big green machine? This is probably the main reason that the SVR also brought in Tornado, to provide a backup.

I suspect this is where many lines have found themselves with Thomas - yes, on a sunny day, with no rival attractions in the area and everyone involved in running the event really 'buzzing', Thomas can make a good margin but if any of those factors is off, it will be less and if all are off, it will be a disaster. Is it wise to take such risks? Entrepreneurs owning their own businesses may be more willing to take such risks with their own money than volunteer Directors or Trustees with their railway's money. Have to pay too much to stage anything, and those taking the financial risk may decide it isn't worth the massive amount of work involved.

The 'model' that works for Flying Scotsman (which is essentially the Santa model) is different from how most do Thomas. It is probably unique to Flying Scotsman, or certainly to a very small band of locomotives, and the real danger is what @Tim Light initially highlighted - that some may think this is the way forward for preserved lines - all pre-booked, premium services with no walk up and pay on the day and nothing 'affordable' for less affluent clientele. There may be some lines where this may work, at least in part - it is essentially The Jacobite model - but most, it won't, and there is another factor - what will the supporters of the line think? Will running such limited services appeal to sufficient volunteers to make operations possible? What happens to intermediate stations if all services are 'end to end', pre-booked, non-stop? Will people remain members if such 'elite' services predominate? And would this 'model' be lucrative enough to replace the value of lost volunteer labour or financial contribution of lost members if this type of service was attempted to predominate?

All very much food for thought!

Steven

 

Whilst there are points for and against the points you raise there is one factor that is primary - the event is here and now. The major problem is that we cannot see into the future hence have to make decisions on what is known. When BR declared in 1968 that August 11 would be the last day of steam operations on its network, it was fair to consider the 15 Guinea Special as THE LAST and decide (a) whether you could afford the price and (b) whether you wished to be part of the event. In 1968 enthusiasts did not know that in 1971 steam traction would be trialled on the network, had no idea that BR would sanction steam operations as a consequence, were not aware that political opponents of nationalisation would privatise BR or that the process would allow continued steam operation on the national network.

The relevance to Flying Scotsman is that in 2017 enthusiasts do not know what will happen in 2018 when the NRM's contract with Ian Riley comes to an end; will it be extended to mutual (Ian Riley / NRM) benefit, will the NRM take the operation "in house", will the ORR ban steam operations as it "interferes" with the running of "normal" train services or will the NRM decide that 60103 has "had its day" and now deserves retirement by becoming a display item to be kept under cover ? Given that uncertainty it is easy to see why people prefer to pay now and have something to remember; since you consider it too expensive then you need to be willing to accept a lost opportunity that may never recur rather than wait for a less expensive opportunity that might never occur.

I write as one who has faced this quandary in recent times. Celebrations of the A4s proved costly; 3 consecutively numbered locos together (60008/09/10 at Shildon) cost £60:00; 6 A4s in York cost £30:00 (twice); 6 A4s at Shildon cost £90:00. The result, however, is a set of images including 2 locomotives no longer in the country which is why the opportunity was taken when available. Pricey ? YES; Regret paying ? NO; as I look back on an unrepeatable event that I could afford to take part in - and did ! As a life member of the KWVR with lineside permits I now accept the rarity of Flying Scotsman's visit and my cheque will be in the post for the restricted access that the KWVR is imposing during the event but then I understand the economic reality of today's heritage movement.

In terms of enthusiast opportunities recent events have indicated the fragility of arrangements and whilst you feel it best that your "wallet will remain unopened until both the hype and hyper-inflated fares have subsided" I would advise that such idealism will only result in your missing an experience that may only occur a specific number of times. In the case of Flying Scotsman I venture to suggest that the NRM will follow Bob Meanley's advice and restrict its operations hence a premium will always be applied to its pricing and the rarity of its operation will still attract large crowds and your wallet will remain unopened.

Sadly there are many who do not see the real cost of operating steam locomotives or the finances involved in operating on the main line hence do not understand the rationale asto why the financial decisions have been taken. I can only repeat the answer given by David Smith in 2000 when asked how long steam would operate on the main line, to which he replied "As long as owners like me are mad enough to put our hands in our pocket". Given that the NRM, which is responsible for 60103, is considered to be owned by the people, the people are now being asked to "put their hands in their pocket" - are you prepared to provide your share by "opening your wallet" ?

 

There are times when I question your judgement Fred but on this occasion I think you're spot on.

 

Well said Sir and there's a Photo Charter at Tanfield 4/2/17 with Twizell on a mixed freight daytime,followed by a nightshoot at Marley Hill all for the sum of £70 and not a diesel in sight

 

A thoughtful and well-reasoned post, as usual Fred.

Just one point to expand on ... you say "... Given that uncertainty it is easy to see why people prefer to pay now and have something to remember ...". This implies that the punters who buy tickets for the S&C trip are savvy about these uncertainties. Many railway enthusiasts are, but I'm guessing that the market segment that this railtour is targeting does not consist primarily of enthusiasts. It is more likely to be affluent families who want to be part of something special and historic. It's the same phenomenon that attracted hundreds of thousands of people to part with large sums of money to watch the Olympic Games. Most of those people were not sports fans and never will be. They simply wanted to be part of history. So far as the S&C trip is concerned, they won't be savvy enough to compare it with other similar railtours. They will see it as a unique historic event and will decide whether it is worth the asking price.

The Americans used to call it "eventism"; the urge to be part of a high profile event, even if it doesn't actually interest you.

If the KWVR can tap into this "eventism" and make a tidy profit then good luck to them.

 

Interesting point of view Fred, but I think you misinterpret both my opinions & motives. Firstly I am a KWVR member and whilst I do not entirely agree with the way in which that railway has approached this particular opportunity neither do I condemn it out of hand. Of course I expect that the tills in Haworth & Ingrow will show a profit on the deal, but I hope that does not negate my reservations.

Secondly I am both a tax-payer (supportive of museum funding) and relatively frequent visitor to the NRM. I too visited York & Shildon for the A4 Great Gathering and thoroughly agree with you that they were unrepeatable & unmissable opportunities. Once again though I must dispute the comparison of these with Flying Scotman over the Settle-Carlisle. I suspect I am of a similar vintage to your good self and in those 50 plus years of enthusiasm I can't begin to count the numerous times that 4472 has worked trains over Ais Gill. I have little doubt there will be many more such occasions as, even if Network Rail places future restrictions on steam use as you speculate, I firmly believe that Settle-Carlisle will be a lasting stronghold. With regards to FS tours more generally there any number of 2017 trains already advertised by various operators which, in my view, represent somewhat better value than £220 for a standard return trip to Carlisle.

On my visits to the NRM whilst I am always happy to make a donation I firmly believe in free admission so that those less financially well-placed than myself can enjoy the exhibits. It is an excellent example of what our taxes should be supporting.

Finally I know all too well the costs involved in locomotive ownership. I possess a small shareholding in one mainline registered example and another confined to a private railway. I voluntarily subsidise them, but I don't feel obliged to underwrite the exorbitant cost of the NRM/4472 debacle.

 

I really hope that preserved steam doesn't go the way of Premiership football, but hard reality is that maintaining steam locos with ever increasing safety requirements is not cheap. Serious money has to be raised, and this won't be achieved (with all due respect) by raffles and flogging piles of old magazines at 10p a time. Somebody (actually quite a few people) will have to put their hands into well lined pockets to keep it all going. You could say that premium fare trains, and even linesiding permits, are a way of the better off subsidising the hobby for those of lesser means. It is perhaps sad that some aspects of preserved steam are becoming exclusive, but this is similar to car enthusiasts have to settle for driving a Corsa (which is a great little car) because they can't afford to buy and run a Mercedes.

John

 

One point about the KWVR lineside passes that seems to have been missed: the railway surely needs to control the numbers on the lineside during a very popular event. How many normal passes have they issued? If all current pass-holder showed up, I suspect there'd be too many. They could have said "no lineside access during the event", but that could have led to even more trouble with trespass, both on the railway and on adjoining land. This way, they get to control the numbers and also make some money. One can criticise the wording of the announcements, and perhaps the structure of charges, but the basic approach is sensible. In my opinion, lineside passes for a gala should cost about the same as gala passenger tickets, and there should be some kind of discount if you purchase both.

Regarding the S&C Reopening special - I think they've probably pitched the price about right. To some extent, one's perception of the "special-ness" of an event is coloured by the price. There's no point charging just a little extra compared with a seat on The Waverley later in the year. I predict that the train will be full when it runs, though you might just be lucky enough to grab a seat in the brake coach on the day if you're friendly with the train manager.

 

It may be worth looking at the Dartmoor Railway operation, where the owners are only interested in the 'premium' market, and 'heritage' operations are left to the supporters' association. Personally, I feel that volunteers are less likely to offer their services if a railway becomes too commercial and upmarket.

 

I think the serious photographers would give this one a big miss, the KWVR is as good as it gets when it comes to an authentic Northern branch line but with an A3 and half the world out to see it? If they do want to 'police' the event as they say I would have thought the official lineside passholders could be asked to assist.

 

The mound near Oakworth will be like the Gallowgate end on 60103 running days

 

A good reason for not going near it and on the S&C Ribblehead will be like the Kop at Liverpool. I hope the Landord at the Station Inn is ready for what he's in for.

 

KWVR officials have been having talks with Oxenhope officials on how to cope with expected 50,000 visitors, so it not a question of lineside cost, its being able to get there and actually see the loco amidst a sea of orange.

 

Can't see the local chavs who use the line as a footpath and dog walk coughing up any cash!

 

They'll even be standing in the "loo with a view".

 

As the day nears and I elect to pay the lineside fee I am tempted to ask what arrangements, if any, are being made by the KWVR to assist with parking for photographers who, for example, would normally park at Haworth station yard and Oakworth in order to gain lineside access ? Whilst not seeking special arrangements per se my health is such that I seek to be near to my car hence don't fancy parking at Oxenholme in order to walk to Oakworth for my lineside location. The other option is to use the other train service BUT will my membership privilege of free travel be available during 60103's visit or will that facility also be suspended ?

EDIT : Damed Autospell - Oxenholme should read Oxenhope - obviously !!