If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Should the LMS have built more Moguls and fewer Class 5s

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by sir gilbert claughton, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think the Stanier Moguls had better RA and should have been cheaper to build .
    the TE was , on paper very similar .

    were the Class 5s really a better engine ?
     
  2. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,913
    Likes Received:
    1,612
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Taunton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Stanier Moguls were a 5MT (5P/4F, 5P/5F, 6P/5F, 5MT)engine as well with a higher TE than the Black Five and, also weighed only 3 tones less and with one less wheel the axle load will be very close if not higher. It would have been better to build a new class more like the GWR Manor/BR 4MT 4-6-0 if better RA was wanted.
     
  3. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Likes Received:
    1,690
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There were 285 2-6-0s, 245 from George Hughes and 40 from William Stanier. His intention had always been to concentrate on the 4-6-0s, which eventually totalled 842 members, but these took some time to develop and the Traffic people were, in the meantime, looking for more Horwich Crabs; the Stanier 2-6-0s filled the vacancy but were never envisaged as a long term solution.

    Which was the better engine? That depends on the traffic being worked. The Black Fives generally get the limelight due to there greater use on express passenger workings. And here they were undoubtedly the better type. But once you get to the heavy goods traffic, the reverse is true: the 2-6-0s of both classes were stronger - quite a lot stronger - with better adhesion and, just as important, brakes. Between these two extremes, the three classes worked turn and turn about with little if anything to choose between them. If you had a fitted goods, parcels, local passenger, etc., it made no difference which you had, and you could also add in Jubilees and Baby Scots to the mix, and to some extent, 8Fs.

    Another issue which is often not realised is that many of the 2-6-0 workings were overnight and not generally seen by the enthusiast. The Black 'uns were, in all senses, more visible.
     
  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Likes Received:
    1,690
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    They actually started as rated at 4F, along with the Derby 4. For obvious reasons, that didn't last long!

    RA was seen as a problem during the design stage but it had nothing to do with weight or axle load; it was the width across the cylinders to which the Chief Civil Engineer objected, producing a long list of places where they would be barred on this account. WAS had a Horwich Crab fitted with lead 'fingers' to the profile of the proposed cylinder layout sent around the system and in only few places was there any impingement, so the CCE had to make the necessary modifications to his platform edges and the class went into traffic.
     
    GWR4707, Steve, Bluenosejohn and 2 others like this.
  5. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    96
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The 4-6-0 type will run sweeter in track than a 2-6-0 maybee?
    One way to find out , could have been to compare reprofiling costs of leading drivers.
     
  6. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    I saw a fair few of the Moguls , but only on shed as far as I can remember .
     
  7. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    270
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Perhaps a Black 5 (good route availability) fitted with lead fingers could check gauging around the modern network instead of using laser scanners and computer programmes.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  8. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    2,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Before the introduction of the Black 5's Crabs were commonly used on express workings.

    What I dont understand was why build more 4F's once the 2-6-0's were avalible
     
    ross likes this.
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    14,815
    Likes Received:
    18,809
    Location:
    21C102
    What was the comparative cost between building a 4F and a Stanier mogul? What about the per mile running cost, given the sheds were well supplied with spares for the older design?

    I don’t know the answer. But I suspect the accountants weren’t mugs: no point building locos more expensive than needed until the point the cheaper loco could no longer do the required work.

    (Maybe, of course, the fractured political situation in LMS loco affairs meant some designs perpetuated longer than necessary: even blessed with the greatest management, you don’t turn a company of that size on a sixpence).

    Tom
     
  10. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    not used on express working very much in the '50s but they would often appear on semi fasts
     
  11. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    96
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My hero, Adrian Tester in his book on 4Fs,compares and 4Fs were better.

    ISBN 978 0 957077904
     
  12. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    2,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Where can I get a copy?
     
  13. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    2,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Given the numbers built it seems rather a pity that neither the GWR or LMS 2-6-0's get the recognition they deserve
     
    sir gilbert claughton likes this.
  14. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    118
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  15. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    509
    This is the type of book that enthusiasts should read. There is a lack of informed balance in opinions voiced, in the main because people are swayed by names that they know, Cox being one example.
     
  16. peckett

    peckett Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    88
    Yes ,in BR days and up to the time when diesels started to appear ,the class of 45 loco's were split between 3D Aston(Birmingham),5B Crewe South, 6B Mold Jnc (Chester) and 6C Birkenhead, all freight depots.5A Crewe North used to borrow one or two from Crewe south now and again.
    I used to see them on fitted freights at the south end of the WCML,but only one or two a day on a 12 hour stint.
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,676
    Likes Received:
    3,312
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Adrian Tester is a name I've known for years but he doesn't sway me when it comes to the 4Fs. His books are still a very good read, though. I wish there were more like them.
     
    LMS2968 likes this.
  18. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    yep . the GWR moguls were a fine engine . dunno why they are not being built for preserved lines
     
  19. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    the 4F was a cheap and nasty loco that should have never been built in the numbers it was .
    I was pulled by one on an excursion. how the fireman managed I really don't know . when we got up to 30 mph the engine tailwagged the tender so violently they were going in opposite directions to the tune of nearly 2' 0.
    and this when a Cauliflower was capable of running up to 70mph.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
    LMS2968 likes this.
  20. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Likes Received:
    1,690
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'd say he's in a minority of one, then! I got my opinions from the men who worked them. While they were considered Okay, there was little in the way of enthusiasm for the class
     
    andrewshimmin and Bluenosejohn like this.

Share This Page