Spa Valley and Eridge

I'm going to post this reply to the subject and then I am going to end my participation on here until it gets back on to the original subject of the Eridge extension.

Firstly, the whole subject of the Wealden Line campaign, as already said quite a few times here, has been going on for a long time and I can now think of at least two occasions now where it has been put on the back burner by the Government. I think this will continue to happen too, especially with the current economic climate we are experiencing. Plus I have read in a number of railway magazine sthat unless the money is coming from an external source, along with the labour, to undertake the job, it is unlikely to feature in plans for a number of years to come.

Secondly. The Eridge to Tunbridge Wells line was closed only 20 years ago. There was a reason for this and has there honestly been enough of a swing away from the motor vehicle to provide the demand for this link. People still use their cars and I don't think you are ever going to change this. Plus Eridge station is supported by four buses an hour to Tunbridge Wells, which can get you closer to the centre of the town than any train ever will.

Thirdly. People have still not replied to my statement about capacity on the Hastings line. IT IS FULL!!! There are hardly any free paths on it now, so how do you think you are going to fit trains in that come round from the West station?? There is no bay platform so unless the trains continue on up to London, you will block a through platform for other services, whilst the train terminates.

Fourth. I know for a fact the amount of time that the guys and girls on the Spa Valley have put into not only restoring and creating the railway we currently have, but also the extension to Eridge. Everyone you speak to is passionate about this project and about making it succeed. I doubt you will find anyone who will want to role over and let all this be taken away from us. How do you those members of the railway, reading this thread feel to read all these derogatory comments about their efforts.

IMHO and this is me speaking, not the Spa Valley. I cannot see the two working in perfect harmony together. The line has the structures to run a successful heritage/tourist operation. I can't see a TOC wanting to run trains over the infrastructure that exists and so it would require upgrade. Would this change what happens with the way we run our heritage trains?

Lastly. The Wealden Line campaigners are not for running alongside a heritage organisation. They want rid of us and everything about us. Derogatory comments are made regarding anything we do, even though, as someone has already pointed out, we are virtually doing what they are campaigning for. We have preserved the route and will return trains to most of it. But how can we even contemplate working in harmony if they do all this though? The Swanage has openly talked about some form of commercial service when it returns trains to Wareham. Maybe they will spearhead a new era for heritage railways where this kind of operation CAN be developed. I guess we will have to wait and see.

On a personal note I am a railway enthusiast and I take great pleasure from restoring and seeing heritage trains run. Particularly steam trains of which I have a very serious interest in the engineering and operational side. I do not take any interest from anything that goes on on the mainline with regards to the TOCs and the running of commercial commuter trains. They purely serve as a service to me.

However I do see logic in the Lewes link and because this line has been closed now over 40 years, the world has changed and therefore there could be sense in returning this to operation. Particularly to act as another route from the South Coast to London. After all, you can hardly say the Uckfield line is at the capacity it was originally built for.

Anyway, please please please, can we get back onto the original subject of the Eridge extension. After all the Spa Valley is doing something that no one has yet done in preservation. It is spearheading a preservation first and we should be celebrating this fact and talking about it!!! The Spa Valley will be operating trains alongside a 75mph mainline, using its own members and rolling stock. The whole of the preservation world is watching to see how this develops and we should all be working together to make sure it's a success and everyone knows about it!!! Let's make it happen!!

Matt

 

Thanks Matt - at last a good response. However I won't post again on this thread as small prairie wants to play trains again. Good luck.

 

Meh, I’m all for playing trains but were did I mention that in this topic?

I’m just getting bored reading the same thing worded defiantly each time to be honest. I have no idea what’s going on but I’m just even more confused. Also I’m confused why you’re trying to put MHR into all this? We follow a bus route but I don’t know if that’s any help to the argument or not …

Its just interesting listening to everyone going on about things there not 100% sure about.

 

Calm down matey!! ;-)

 

The only value the Spa Valley route could have as part of the national network, is if the line through East Grinstead (HL) to Three Bridges were reopened (which will never happen). Otherwise you'd be stuck with a rather pointless connection between two lines serving London, which is duplicated by far more frequent and accessible buses anyway. Anyone living south of Eridge who wants to head to the south coast will take the bus (or train, if the Wealden Line group get their way) to Lewes and beyond. The Spa Valley would appear to be fortunate in that they occupy a genuinely redundant section of line.

Edit: Although, saying that, if the northern chord of the Groombridge triangle could be brought back into use, that's one town that would benefit from re-connection, as it would gain a direct link to London. I still think that Groombridge - Tunbridge Wells West wouldn't be much use, though.

 

You have a point in most of what you've said James, but I can't see how the reopening of East grinstead to Three Bridges would have any impact on the Spa Valley?

 

Can I say a few comments-
1.The possibility of reopening the section Tunbridge Wells West-Central is DEAD . The trackbed has been disturbed by redevelopment and would require multi-multi million pounds to reinstate. The trackbed is divided into many fragments each requiring extensive work. Nobody has mentioned that the cutting near Grove Tunnel was partly infilled by Railtrack about 10 years ago to avoid a major earthslip. I was working for RT when it was done!!. Suggest no longer discuss it this proposal to reopen this section.
2. Suggest also that this message forum should not discuss any other wild aspirations such as lines to East Grinstead, Groombridge Jn- Ashurst Jn which have nothing to do with the Spa Valley Railway extension to Eridge.
3. The Spa Valley Railway serves the transport needs of people travelling to High Rocks and Groombridge as well as in the future to Eridge. There are no buses at all to High Rocks- a station which serves the Inn which is a popular venue for weddings and functions . There is no bus service Eridge-Groombridge. The route 291 bus Tunbridge Wells to Groombridge does not run on Sundays or Bank Holidays when the train runs. On Sundays the bus service Eridge-Tunbridge Wells is sparse and not four buses per hour as suggested. Finally the Spa Valley Railway has been running Saturday evening services during the summer when the local bus service ceases after approx. 1900 hrs. This has proved so popular that extra trains have been arranged. Many passengers do not come just for a round trip but use intermediate stations as well. There is a growing number of residents who use Groombridge as their local station considering some do not have cars..
4. I ask readers to support the Spa Valley Railway extension to Eridge for which the work is in progress now. The track is expected to be finished in the next few weeks but legal work and signalling alterations will have to be completed before test trains can start . Rather than spend time and money arguing about future aspirations costing millions of pounds I suggest sending them a donation and support a scheme that is actually going to open Easter 2009.

 

I agree its time to get back onto the subject intended, any works planned for this weekend?

 

I wasn't going to post again until aI saw Steamy Brian's note. I am staggered at how little understanding and knowledge there is of the analysis that goes into any feasibiliity study. Of course Wealden Link know about the obstacles east of Groombridge! - not only that but the cost of reinstatement has been assessed, had contingency and risk costs added, been amortised over the life of the life of Network Rail's own Planning projections........ Do you honestly think nobody is aware of every inch of infrastructure, what is there and what isn't and what it will cost to put right? I repeat for the umpteenth time, their appeal is to the Treasury, not to shareholders, and their arguments incorporate a) pathing considerations and b) through route and diversionary benefits, not simply the number of commuters who want to travel between Eridge and TW!
Secondly I may have to spell this out again. If.you.try.to.run.as.a.transport.service.you. will.go.bust. If you add up the number of passengers using you as a utility and not as a novelty, and then add up the operating costs, the depreciation, the contingency of both staff, rolling stock and infrastructure it will not work. If someone fancies a stroll at High Rocks they might take the train once for the novelty then they will revert to using the car again. Rail transport requires subsidy even running 7 days a week. Running one or two trains a week and regarding it as a revenue generator will not work, not matter how it may look to you when you see the thumper going past. Evening services on preserved lines only attract sustained business as part of a package offering eg wine and dine, Real ale specials etc. You are not a transport solution. Like all heritage railways you have conditions restricting you to 25mph. Light Railways went broke in the twenties and thirties for goodness sake - do you honestly think that an LRO model can compete as a trasnport solution in the 21st century? You will need to continually innovate the packages you offer to gain repeat business. Learn from accumulated hard won experience, or be doomed to fail.

 

The latest news on the Eridge extention that this thread should be about!. ](*,) Can be found at http://www.spavalleyrailway.co.uk/SpaEridgeNews08.htm.

svr Member

 

Has anybody told the KWVR?

 

fao papagolfjuliet - How many commuters do the KWVR carry then? Last time I looked they don;t even operate a service at all on many midweek days and when they do the first train isn't until 10:00am. What do passengers do on those other days - stay at home? That's the big difference between a transport service and a Working museum (which is what heritage lines are). To be the former you need to operate a 16 hour timetable 6 or even 7 days a week, rain or shine summer or winter. Do you have the machinery and the manpower to do that? The answer is no and if you tried you would wear out your infrastructure chasing a dream for minimal returns. The council wouldn't offer you a trasnport subsidy and you wouldn't qualify for Community Rail status so you'd be on your own.
I am amazed that this concept of chalk and cheese is so difficult to take on board!

 

So would the 'Wealden Line' wash its face financially? Or would it require ever increasing subsidy from an already depleted public purse, in order to essentially duplicate a number of existing transport solutions?

 

The Wealden Line (Uckfield - Lewes anyway) would definitely "wash its face", and more. The Brighton and Hastings lines are full to capacity...they simply can't take any more traffic/longer trains...and a third line to the capital will act as a much-needed "overflow" and diversionary route, perhaps even becoming an equal (once again) of the two lines mentioned above. This is no winding sleepy branch-line formation we're talking about...it used to be double track, and is built to mainline standards.

 

Sorry, I meant the RHDR, and specifically their school train.

 

Since 1985 the Wealden Line Campaign have been saying we are going to open the Uckfield-Lewes line, we are going to open Tunbridge Wells-Eridge line... Each year they have said the same thing that the lines will open in a few years time and after 23 years it is getting boring hearing the same words..
In 1985 Spa Valley Railway says WE are going to open the Tunbridge Wells-Eridge line and have done it without any subsidy from government.
If the Spa Valley Railway had done what the Wealden Railway Campaign said and waited for the Government to pay for reopening it we would have NOTHING but an overgrown abandoned trackbed between Tunbridge Wells -Eridge. Suggest that the Wealden Line Campaign stick to reopening Uckfield-Lewes which the report in July said would cost £137 million to reopen. Good luck in finding that sort of money specially in this present economic depression.

 

domeyhead, it would be nice if you stop RUINING this topic. there were 7 pages of posts and pictures concerning the very reason why this topic was started, but now there are another 3 pages full of you ranting on and on about how we, the spa valley railway, will fail if we try to serve as a commuter route. we are not asking commuters to use our line, but if they do want to use it they are welcome to it, as it could be cheaper than driving.

now if im wrong on any of these subjects then please, someone who IS A MEMBER OF THE SPA VALLEY correct me.
now for the last time can we get back to talking about the eridge extension

 

\/

 

This big opening is going to be superb, any information as to whats going to be apart of it yet?

Even though it is quite a few months away yet!

 

Alot of things still in the planning stages and will be advertised as and when confirmed, im thinking there will be lots to see and do, we have the use of the WHOLE Southern Car park to stage the event so its gotta be big the railway has waited over 20 years for this achievment and plans are to celebrate in style!