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Standard 7mt 2-8-2 Mikado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 60114.M.J.Allen, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. 60114.M.J.Allen

    60114.M.J.Allen New Member

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    Hi to one and all, does anyone have any information on the 7MT 2-8-2 that was planned?
    This appear's to be quite an interesting proposed design?
    all information would be greatly appreciated.

    All the best
    Michael Allen
     
  2. ady

    ady New Member

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    As far as knew it was the surgestion that this (or a 4-8-0) would been better in the Highlands then the 'Clans' would have been. Not sure what form it would have taken... Brit Boiler and 4MT wheels?
     
  3. buseng

    buseng Member

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  4. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Member Account Suspended

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    I have been trying to find more material on this as well, I certainly think it's an interesting locomotive.
    From what Ive read it's plan was an 8F (or 8MT) 2-8-2 with a Britannia boiler (in keeping with Standard designs) and could have been numbered 91xxx series.
    The issue I understand was around the Firebox width.
    Ive been told there is reference to this in E.S. Cox's book BR Standard Steam Locomotives.. but can't find a copy for love nor money.
    and also in the book "Locomotives that never where".. again Ive not seen this for a few years.

    Locomotives that never were is always an interesting thing... I was reading recently about the planned BR53 Mallet planned and maybe actually started construction during the war.
     
  5. yec2521

    yec2521 New Member

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    cracking model but wasnt that the ALTERNATIVE 9F rather than an outright 2-8-2/2-8-0 that was planned?
     
  6. TonyMay

    TonyMay New Member

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    didn't happen.

    why is the model numbered in the std tank engine series?
     
  7. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Member

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    We've already had a standard 2-8-2 running on B.R. In 1968 one of Carnforth's 9F's was running with its back coupling rods removed for a short while. Any body got a picture of it ?

    Bob.
     
  8. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    I thought that iit was a Speke Junction 9 that ran as a 2-8-2?
     
  9. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Member Account Suspended

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    "On June 12th 92167, already running with a boiler defect dropped its rods working back from Leeds. Repairs were denied as were those to 92160 several days later, both were quickly condemned."
    http://www.derbysulzers.com/68.html

    92167, withdrawn 30th June 1968.
    http://www.railuk.info/steam/getsteam.php?row_id=23125

    Railuk also suggests this was one of only a handful to have a BR1K tender.
     
  10. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    My understanding was that the Mikado was seriously contemplated but after Riddles experience with the German 2-10-0s during his WD service which he found impressive both in terms of engineering simplicity and power output he decided to design a BR equivalent instead of the expected Mikado - and thus was born the 9F. I suspect that Gresley might not have minded the change had he lived - his V2 had already established a sound reputation foir engineering excellence.
     
  11. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    See my tag for a better model. i think (though the driving wheels do look a little big to be 5' 3"

    I wrote the following recently just to amuse myself:


    " One cannot question the justification to build a P2 (or an evolution of it) so long as is acceptable for mainline running and there is work for it to do
    But to my mind there is another 2-8-2 that would be a better bet…

    The Final contribution of BR steam – the BR Standard designs, criticized by many at the time as dull and an unnecessary duplication, nevertheless continue to fulfill their brief; unfussy workmanlike ‘practical’ performers on today’s steam railways be it Brits on Expresses, the Pocket Rocket on branch lines, or examples of class 2, 4, 5 and 9 on preserved lines the length and breadth of Britain. The family photograph is nearly complete thanks to two new builds and a rebuild, but there is still something missing…

    The surprise package of the Standards series, the 9F, demonstrated a versatility beyond its intended purpose, due in part to its original design “compromise” nature. The initial 2-8-2 Fast freight/mixed traffic Design suggested by Cox & Bond was passed over by Riddles in favour of this more Heavy freight oriented 2-10-0, a development of the Design that Riddles had already produced for the WD and in hindsight this was the right decision for the time.
    Yet with its 5 foot driving wheels and wide shallow firebox it proved to be not only a good heavy freight locomotive though but also a decent Fast freight and Passenger engine capable of sustained comfortable running at speeds not expected of such a locomotive. Evening Star in its brief mainline preservation career delighted many with its impressive acceleration and turn of speed

    Unfortunately the 9f rolling chassis is no longer suitable for today’s mainline and yet there is still a place for the locomotive with acceleration and adhesion as its main strengths as opposed to high cruising speed (i.e. 48151)
    In the mainline absence of the 9F. It’s my belief that a reversion towards the original BR ‘Class 9’ design; a 2-8-2 chassis provides that locomotive.

    This would be a lively and versatile power unit, balanced to run at 60mph but with its maximum power available at speeds lower than typical big wheeled express passenger designs, intended to keep time as much by powering up from speed checks rather than out and out fast running
    Riddles himself mused that the Pacific was not the best solution to the 6 and 7 MT role but that the Mikado was. The last version of this design
    was on the BR drawing board from 1952 and was, to all intents and purposes a 2-8-2 version of the 4-6-2 (Brittannia)7MT

    The starting point for this project could be a surviving 9f, two of which look increasingly less likely to be restored, but the Frames, wheels, boiler and cylinders would in all probability have to be new build . Patterns for a significant number of common components exist or will be created for both 72010 and 82045 and other BR standard steam locos undergoing restoration or overhaul.

    As with 60163 It is not intended as a vehicle for Blue sky steam thinking - Possible modifications beyond original specifications would be both historically pertinent and beneficial to current operating conditions and might include -

    (to complement the Loco that never quite was) the tender that never quite was… proposed for a cancelled 9F Southern region allocation; a longer wheelbase version of the BR1 with the classic Inset sides profile - 6000 gallons/ 7 tones capacity, necessitating fewer water stops
    Modified Tender coal/ water spaces to and allow for provision of Air braking and modern electrical and com’s equipment

    Front end draughting possibly via a geisl or similar Ejector, ideally housed within a classic BR(LNWR)appearance lipped double chimney casting, allowing smokebox screening without loss of power.

    BR/ Caprotti Valve gear as intended for all suitable BR Engines post 1954 to give best possible cylinder efficiency and free running

    Compensated springing on driving wheels ?

    Appearance BR MT Lined Black /
    Lined Brunswick Green with evening Star Embellishments
    Such as cast Numbers and Copper chimney caps too be considered

    Names under consideration ‘SLEIPNIR,’ (a mythical eight legged horse) ‘MIKADO’(self explanatory), ‘E.S. COX’ (because this would have been forgotten about if not for his books), "

    Please feel free to pullit to bits as its the best way to learn anything, especially about steam locos...
     
  12. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    There is a fair bit of info in Cox's book, was fortunate enough to get it off Ebay of all places. The most comprehensive detail i have found has been in the RTC British standards series Vols 1 and 4
     
  13. 23E

    23E New Member

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    ........
     
  14. John Webb

    John Webb New Member

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    According to the book "Riddles and the '9Fs'", by Col. H C B Rogers, Riddles had a design of 2-10-0 Austerity built during WW2 following the 2-8-0 Austerity to reduce the axle loading; this was before he met up with German 2-10-0 locos.
    This book recounts that Cox and associates proposed a 2-8-2 with a Britannia boiler and 5ft 3in diameter wheels and produced a memorandum giving 10 good reasons for this wheel arrangement. However Riddles successfully countered these arguments, particularly in connection with the tendency of a loco to 'sit back' when starting - on a 2-8-2 this means a loss of adhesion for power transfer - and went on to design the 9F 2-10-0
     
  15. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    The 9f design especially 5 ft driving wheels the wide firebox perched over the last pair of driving wheels came about as a result of the drawing office at derby addressing points on the the 10 point memo. It was always intended to use the brittania boiler, but this was now perched so high it was beyond the loading guage so the after part of the boiler was reduced in diameter, the intention was to use the Britannia blocks for the smokebox end and the clan blocks for the firebox end but i dont know if this was actually the case. so the 9f Performance charictaristics are somewhere between the proposed 2-8-2 and the wd 2-10-0.
    One supposes that the proposed 2-8-2 would behave somewhere between the 9f and 7mt 4-6-2...
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

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    Er, that doesn't much that you could use! I don't think that the two worst 9Fs considt of much more than those parts, either. A better starting point would be a Britannia, however, it's difficult to imagine 70000 or 70013 being axed to provide parts!
     
  17. nickt

    nickt New Member

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    Two copies available from here http://www.haybooks.com/:
     
  18. 60114.M.J.Allen

    60114.M.J.Allen New Member

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    this is some interesting information thank you everyone if there is any more information that has not been spoke about i'd like to here more

    once again thank you everyone
     
  19. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    Yeah, not wrong and i think you should be chastised within an inch of your bedtime for even suggesting axing those lovely Brits...
    Buffer beam, fall plate, smokebox and door, chimney,? running plate, cab axles and boxes, pony truck and wheel. mostly parts that perish in the outdoors or get plenty of wear and tear...
    But head on you could be looking at an original loco if those parts were worth keeping...

    One other referencework worth mentioning is Brian Hollingworths 'How to drive a steam Locomotive'....
     
  20. Sir Nigel Gresley

    Sir Nigel Gresley New Member

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    Assuming that Riddles was impressed by the German Class 42/50/52 2-10-0s, why did he go for a pony truck instead of the former's Krauss-Helmholz truck (a linkage which effectively creates a bogie of the pony wheel and leading driver)? This would probably have allowed 9Fs to be used on the main line today.
     

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