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Standard 8MT 2-8-2 New Build

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by pete2hogs, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    To be fair, Thompson had embarked on replacement of some of the older designs with his B1 class amongst one or two others.
     
  2. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Resident of Nat Pres Account Suspended

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    Agreed,

    Though I do believe the LNER would have followed Dutch practice.. the foundations were there...literally
     
  3. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    But there was no merger in anything but name until the diesel era.
     
  4. steamdream

    steamdream Member

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    Dear "Draggon" (bouuuuuuh!! I'm frightened!)

    In fact 1340 2-4-2 R mikado were ordered to Canada and USA but in 1947 the norvegian cargo Belpamela sank with 17 engines (because a violent storm)
    604 engines were fuel oil fired locs,
    regards
    Noel
     
  5. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Active Member

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    LNER boilers were no less efficient then GWR/LMS and cheaper to build and maintain.

    2ft gauge locos have run successfully for years with Krauss-Helmholz trucks so it is difficult to imagine one would not have fitted on a BR standard gauge loco - but a 2-8-2 in Britain wouldn't have needed one because actually sharp curves are rare in the UK and in any case the wheelbase would not be particularly long with 5ft 3 or even 5'6 wheels. The P2's did not, in fact, spread or damage the track with their bigger wheels, that's a myth. They may because of size and weight come off the track in shed yards, but the 8MT would be shorter and lighter, more like the P1's which had no trouble in that way at all.

    I agree with 242A1 that much better engines than the standards could have been built, if indeed new designs were needed at all, but would the staff and works be able to handle them? It would have taken a degree of organisation of retraining and so on that never happened in the UK in steam days, hence a lot of fairly sophisticated design features that were successful in other countries never took root here, not even compounding.
     
  6. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Resident of Nat Pres Account Suspended

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    I'd go further than that and say it wasn't until privatisation.
    Diesels achieved more than steam in standardisation, but the classes did congregate to regional allegiance..
    33's to the Southern
    26/27 to Scotland,
    Hydraulics to the western
    Etc etc.
     
  7. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

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    I'd argue that dieselisation was more divisive than the Br Std steam programme, as you have pretty much stated. I'm no expert on boxes, but you had the LNER Deltics, the GWR Westerns (see what they did there?), Warships and Hymeks etc, Southern had the Cromptons and Electro-Diesels and the LMS had lots of things with extra wheels.
     
  8. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    That 2ft gauge (and other narrow gauge) locos may well have run successfully with Krauss-Helmholz trucks is not denied, but that is beside the point. Because of the restricted UK load gauge (particularly the width in this case, and especially regarding the P2) the leading coupled axle crankpins are already so close to the piston rod crossheads that there is no scope for additional side play on that axle to suit the Krauss-Helmholz application. It is as simple as that.
     
  9. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Out of interest, the 'Belpamela' previously also took the LMS 'Coronation' loco and train to the USA in 1939.
     
  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Hmmm where do the
    EE type 3's and Brush 4's fit into this?
     
  11. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Everywhere :)
     
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  12. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I also forgot this magnificnt class too... 2014-06-14 10.30.15.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  13. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Active Member

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    Do you have a secret mission to put as many pictures of diesels in the steam section as you can?
     
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  14. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

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    The exceptions that proves the rule?
     
  15. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Active Member

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    You know, that strikes me as exactly the sort of negative thinking 242A1 complains about. The cylinders would be well above the swinging part of the truck, and the movement of the leading coupled axle crankpins is not so great that the cylinders could not be spread slightly to accommodate it - or we could go for a Gresley A4 layout with narrower outside cylinders and the inside one cocked well up and driving on the second axle. Oh wait a minute - that's what the P2's have :)

    If that wasn't sufficient you could always do what Dr. Tuplin suggested once and make the inside cylinder(s) larger to lop another inch or two off the outside pair.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If you refer to the designs schemed out by Bulleid, then the second 2-8-2 design had a Helmholtz truck, so presumably he also considered that there was sufficient space. I don't know what cylinder sizes he was proposing for the second design, but his first design also proposed different-sized cylinders (smaller diameter but bigger stoke for the outside pair), again presumably for reasons of ensuring adequate clearance. So such considerations have good pedigree (dare I say it, better pedigree than just the good doctor!) See post 80 for dimensions.

    Tom
     
  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Oh yes, Dr. Tuplin - that giant amongst steam engineers. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I did think about that, but also thought What the hell its a rather nice phot of a personal favorite beastie of mine 20059.
     
  19. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Don't be vague - just point out that it was the only diesel design which followed steam principles with something big in front of the cab for forward travel, it followed the MR tradition of providing sufficient power for local trips but doubled up could handle the heaviest of freights and it has lasted longer than many standard locomotives built in the same decade. As such surely a worthy descendant of steam locomotives ! ;)
     
  20. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Cheers Fred, certainly put it better than I could! As I say have a soft spot for 20059 as the Fat Controller would say 'It's a really useful engine' think they say the same thing at SVR...
     

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